The regionals used to be the stepping stone to the majors and they are as long as the pilot pipeline is moving at full speed. Unfortunately the regionals continue to grow and mainline carriers will continue to shrink and only operate large equipment between major markets. Due to age 65 and the economy a regional pilot might be an FO for 5yrs or more. The day of the fast upgrade is gone and it will return to the way it used to be, long upgrade times. The situation is not going to improve any time soon, I will guarantee you that there will be more furloughs, UPS, FEDEX, DAL, these are the next on the chopping block. They will never take steps to raise the entry requirments, or to raise pay. THE COMPANIES DON'T HAVE TO. Regional carriers do not care if you get paid enough, they never will.

 

I have wondered about this kind of thing coming to pass. My understanding is that global shipping has gone to contracted cheap international labor. A crew can come from a third world company and man a ship at a third the cost of what a local union crew would cost.

What is to stop a major airline from doing something similar? If ATI comes to pass could we see American Airlines jets being flown by a Pakistani crew? Could we see the day when major airlines set up overseas cadet programs in the third world to train pilots for the american market?

Skyhigh

 

Why don't you mind making 25k as a 2-3 year FO? You honestly think that is fair wages for ANY professional with 2-3 years experience?

Agreed, the regionals are no longer stepping stones to major airlines. The regionals have grown into larger aircraft, and larger routes, resulting in fewer and fewer mainline jobs being available. That trend will continue, and anybody hired in the last 5 years had best plan on being at a regional for a long long long time.

If you could get more people to understand that without having to sacrifice 2-3 of their life before realizing there is no future at regionals so long as people continue to be willing to perform a profession for general labor wages.

I disagree. The entry level pay at regionals is not commensurate with the level of education, experience, training or liability involved with the job.

The never ending supply of young pilots with SJS and false dreams of doing as you say, 2-5 years at a regional, then going to a major; are the primary reasons that nothing has changed. The regional managements haveb been playing on these false hopes for years now. Hopefully, the press being generated over the issue will cause many folks to change career paths prior to being locked into this one.

 

Current scope provisions in most legacy contracts prevent anyone other than a pilot with a line number at that airline from flying jets in the companies livery. However, the end around is to allow route authority to be operated by a third party alliance partner. If Cabatoge is the ultimate boogie man in terms of harm to US pilot labor, the ATI provisions on the table are a close second.

ATI would allow airlines to farm out International route authority previously operated by US airlines to third party vendors in much the same way legacy airlines contract to regional "fee per departure" airlines in the US. Unfortunately few CBAs address this and the consquences are potentially devistating. If allowed to grow to fruition, forgein carriers would fly the International segments and fee for depature "regional" airlines would fly the domestic segments. Current legacy airlines would have no reason to operate aircraft and would becopme brand managment holding company.

Should ATI pass, I don't think the US landscape for pilot jobs will dry up overnight, but stage will certainly be set for dramatic change over the next 2 decades.

It's already happening at United with the Air Lingus deal; United sells tickets and Air Lingus operates the jets without Air Lingus crews.

United, Aer Lingus forge 'an unusual linkup' -

The 2010 timeframe is to see if ATI passes, if it does you can be sure that will be more to come.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...ght-scope.html

 

Do NOT try to drive the nail in the coffin of General Aviation. It still is and always will be the heart and soul of all of aviation in this country. Tell me you didn't learn to fly through General Aviation. After 36 years in aviation, I still hold high hopes (naivete abounds!) that things will get better and turn around. I always wanted to be an airline pilot, got my chance two years ago (RAH), then quit because the dream got kind of erased by the way things are today. I am very happy staying in GA and do not regret the decision to resign from RAH when I did. 121 flying today is NOTHING like what it was when I first learned to fly (1973). Sorry for the rant, but I still hold on to a little piece of that dream.

 

Ok, I will not drive the nail into GA. However something needs to be done to restrict the flow of professionally minded pilots.

Skyhigh

 

No, it's more like... something needs to be done to restrict the flow of professionally minded pilots willing to work for nothing, with no QOL in exchange for flying a jet....

Raise the Min's to at LEAST holding an ATP to become an FO and you will drop a large chunk of the "me now" generation who won't put the time and effort into obtaining the required experience first... that would slow the tide of I'll fly for free folks.

 

The AMA controls the number of doctors and surgeons, develops revenue streams to healthcare, and provides avenues to specialize their craft.

We do none of that. In fact we do many things counter to it.

If the AMA was tasked to "fix" the pilot profession they would do the following:

(1) Part 121 ops could only be flown by pilots who both held an ATP MEL w/PIC type. No one with less than 1,500 hours would fly part 121.

(2) FAA exams for Commercial/Inst, CFI, FE, ATP. Would be rewritten. No answer book "memorize" the questions without understanding of the subject material. You would have to comprehend the subject matter to pass the test.

(3) No part 61 schools for anything above private.

(4) Part 141 schools required for anything above private. Part 141 schools would be aligned with major universities. Undergraduate degree required BEFORE entry into aviation program. Undergraduate degree would NOT be in aviation.

(5) Entry into 141 school would be by competitive selection based on:
(a) ACAT (Aviation College Admission Test) score,
(b) Undergraduate GPA
(c) Interview with faculty team selection officer

(6) 141 school would be 4 years long and be similar to military flight school with a follow on in test pilot school.

(7) Board certification and specialty training for various types of flying.

(8) Recurrent certification and testing beyond current FAA/Airline requirements.

Before anyone is offended and feels these hoops to jump through are too high, let me ask this: If the current hoops are so low, so easy, that anyone can jump through them, what good is jumping through them if by the time you do it there is no reward at the end?

Setting the hoops low creates a perpetual surplus of pilots that will always expand and contract with the market. This is why there never is and never will be a pilot shortage. Just lower the hoop a little more if needed.

Let me also ask this: If all of the above was in place; The left seat guy on 3407 was being paid 175K; The right seat gal was being paid 150K; Do you think 3407 would have happened?

I have been flying since 1976. I know the answer.

Some are going to respond with “That level is too hard and not required for the job”. Explain to the family members of the passengers of 3407 what level is enough because to them the current level is not good enough.

The most difficult aviation duty I have ever had to perform was to knock on a door at 1:45am and tell a next-of-kin their family member was dead. Hoops 1-8 would have been easier.

 

I don't know about that. It might lower it a little bit however it seems to me that those who would be deterred by an extra year or two before reaching the regionals are not destined to remain in aviation for long anyway.

Most pilots are obsession driven. Pay is nice but they are usually willing to climb over their grandma to get into the flight deck. Pay, flight time, cost of training are all surmountable obstacles in their way. Adding another one will only serve to slow them down a bit. They will still cross picket lines and fist fight in the streets to work for less than minimum wage.

Skyhigh

 

Agreed. And make 121 carriers (regionals esp.) safer.