Frozen in flight EGL 4184 (roselawn)
06-12-2009 | 05:37 PM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 313
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From: CRJ FO
The LOSS OF CONTROL blame is SQUARELY on the manufacturer, the airline, the FAA and the French DGAC. We're talking well over a dozen documented incidents of loss of lateral control in icing conditions in multiple different situations both in Europe and here. Remember, this flight had 5 MINUTES exposure and the unprotected areas exhibited only 1/4 to 1/2 inches of accretion on visable surfaces and were being REMOVED by the boots (this crew thought they were doing pretty good). It's what was occuring OUTSIDE their view that caused the problem (ridges BEHIND the boots) and that they were obviously unaware of. This was 15 years ago and no other design has exhibited this anomaly (hinge moment reversal).
The RECOVERY (in my opinion) was where the primary error was made by the crew. Once the intial upset occurred, the ailerons snapped full right after the auto pilot gave up and disengaged in LESS then 1 second (this likely would have broken one or both wrists had one actually held onto the yoke under this circumstance). The aircraft rolled to the right to near vertical and the nose dropped 15 degrees below the horizon (try that in IMC in a 172 or something and let me know what your heart rate is). Then, there was an attempt to raise the nose and roll the aircraft back level. Unfortunately, in hinge moment reversal the the aileron pressure is reveresed (what the hell ?) and the yoke was easy to snap back to left but the aircraft didn't respond with it as it should. The aircraft did indeed begin to roll back to level and an effort was made to raise the nose, but this was the loss of the ballgame. The AOA increased again, the aircraft returned to the previous condition and snapped into two complete 360 degree rolls as the nose settled down to 55 degrees below the horizon (IMC still) with G forces ranging from +3 to -2 (IMC aerobatics). In case, you don't know when you look at that colorful little AI in your face, it's ALL brown now and whirling like a fan at greater than 50 degrees/second (not to mention the G's, but why aggrivate this discussion, eh ?).
Had they released back pressure after the inital upset and sacrificed some altitude, even several thousand feet, the second and more violent (and unrecoverable) loss of control may have been avoided. But, that's not where they were......they didn't know about what they were dealing with then.
Lets see.............can't reselect flaps (they DID do that to no avail), no rudder, backward ailerons and increasing elevator forces with a panel full of brown garbage.
How are we doing Mr. Hoover ?
O.K. back to the fun..........well, lets see, we're building speed dramatically in a near virtical dive in IMC with no lateral control (or controls !) and little disernable information from the panel. Airpeed ?...........over redline. Altimeter ?..........looks like a fan (the hundred hand is complete a complete sweep every two seconds). Attitude indicator ?........all Brown and can't read it, it's flopping around so fast. Vertical speed ?.......well, pegged out at 6,000 FPM (the actual rate reached 30,000 FPM.....yes, thats correct).
Jeez........what happened ?
We did have some ice, but the boots WERE breaking it away and what the hell is this ?
Well, you can guess the rest.
When they broke out of the overcast in this condition at about 1700 feet in a near inverted dive at 36,000 FPM and 370 knots they had two choices that didn't matter.
Do you want to hit the ground intact or in pieces ?
Well, one always trys to do SOMETHING, so they did. They tried to recover and at 5.5 G's both outer wings failed (one of which sheared off the horizontal tail) and hit the ground so hard 68 people became 2000 in a micro second.
You're concentrating your efforts on the straw that broke the camels back, when you should be worrying about why (and whom) overloaed the camel in the first place. If you're a current ATR driver, it's even more improtant to relinquish what you THINK you know and focus on the lessons of the past and the respect your survival requires.
What GOT this crew to this situation was not THEIR doing and you have to understand that.
Is the ATR a "deathtrap" in icing ?
Not necessarily, and I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is to be a BETTER ATR pilot, you'd better understand its history, what others didn't know then and the lessons their loss can teach you.
Personally, it think it unlikely that the wing will screw you. I think the tail has just as much, if not more chance under the right conditions to hand you a fecal sandwich as the wing.
For your own sake, don't be complacent in this aircraft with ice. It may be the cutest kitty you've seen but if placed in certain situations (which you may not recognize initially), it can easily show its fangs.
The RECOVERY (in my opinion) was where the primary error was made by the crew. Once the intial upset occurred, the ailerons snapped full right after the auto pilot gave up and disengaged in LESS then 1 second (this likely would have broken one or both wrists had one actually held onto the yoke under this circumstance). The aircraft rolled to the right to near vertical and the nose dropped 15 degrees below the horizon (try that in IMC in a 172 or something and let me know what your heart rate is). Then, there was an attempt to raise the nose and roll the aircraft back level. Unfortunately, in hinge moment reversal the the aileron pressure is reveresed (what the hell ?) and the yoke was easy to snap back to left but the aircraft didn't respond with it as it should. The aircraft did indeed begin to roll back to level and an effort was made to raise the nose, but this was the loss of the ballgame. The AOA increased again, the aircraft returned to the previous condition and snapped into two complete 360 degree rolls as the nose settled down to 55 degrees below the horizon (IMC still) with G forces ranging from +3 to -2 (IMC aerobatics). In case, you don't know when you look at that colorful little AI in your face, it's ALL brown now and whirling like a fan at greater than 50 degrees/second (not to mention the G's, but why aggrivate this discussion, eh ?).
Had they released back pressure after the inital upset and sacrificed some altitude, even several thousand feet, the second and more violent (and unrecoverable) loss of control may have been avoided. But, that's not where they were......they didn't know about what they were dealing with then.
Lets see.............can't reselect flaps (they DID do that to no avail), no rudder, backward ailerons and increasing elevator forces with a panel full of brown garbage.
How are we doing Mr. Hoover ?
O.K. back to the fun..........well, lets see, we're building speed dramatically in a near virtical dive in IMC with no lateral control (or controls !) and little disernable information from the panel. Airpeed ?...........over redline. Altimeter ?..........looks like a fan (the hundred hand is complete a complete sweep every two seconds). Attitude indicator ?........all Brown and can't read it, it's flopping around so fast. Vertical speed ?.......well, pegged out at 6,000 FPM (the actual rate reached 30,000 FPM.....yes, thats correct).
Jeez........what happened ?
We did have some ice, but the boots WERE breaking it away and what the hell is this ?
Well, you can guess the rest.
When they broke out of the overcast in this condition at about 1700 feet in a near inverted dive at 36,000 FPM and 370 knots they had two choices that didn't matter.
Do you want to hit the ground intact or in pieces ?
Well, one always trys to do SOMETHING, so they did. They tried to recover and at 5.5 G's both outer wings failed (one of which sheared off the horizontal tail) and hit the ground so hard 68 people became 2000 in a micro second.
You're concentrating your efforts on the straw that broke the camels back, when you should be worrying about why (and whom) overloaed the camel in the first place. If you're a current ATR driver, it's even more improtant to relinquish what you THINK you know and focus on the lessons of the past and the respect your survival requires.
What GOT this crew to this situation was not THEIR doing and you have to understand that.
Is the ATR a "deathtrap" in icing ?
Not necessarily, and I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is to be a BETTER ATR pilot, you'd better understand its history, what others didn't know then and the lessons their loss can teach you.
Personally, it think it unlikely that the wing will screw you. I think the tail has just as much, if not more chance under the right conditions to hand you a fecal sandwich as the wing.
For your own sake, don't be complacent in this aircraft with ice. It may be the cutest kitty you've seen but if placed in certain situations (which you may not recognize initially), it can easily show its fangs.
I am never complacent with ice - it doesn't matter what airplane I'm flying. The truth of the matter is I don't like ice very much and I learned that lesson the hard way many years ago in a C-172. I don't enjoy fecal sandwiches.
Thank you for a well put post.
06-12-2009 | 06:24 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 153
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Yea... the worst ice is found in BOS, CLE, SEA,... AND DFW.
06-12-2009 | 09:15 PM
#43
On Reserve
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
respect to eaglyfly ... and ... pontius pilot
the first guy for giving some hard wisdom
and second guy for taking it in the manner a real pilot would
benefitted from the words wriitten in both your posts
and'd fly w/ either of you two men anyday
and peace to all the hearts&minds affected by the tragedy of 4184
the first guy for giving some hard wisdom
and second guy for taking it in the manner a real pilot would
benefitted from the words wriitten in both your posts
and'd fly w/ either of you two men anyday
and peace to all the hearts&minds affected by the tragedy of 4184
06-13-2009 | 05:12 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 876
Likes: 0
From: Captain, CRJ-200, ASA
Is the ATR a "deathtrap" in icing ?
Not necessarily, and I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is to be a BETTER ATR pilot, you'd better understand its history, what others didn't know then and the lessons their loss can teach you.
Personally, it think it unlikely that the wing will screw you. I think the tail has just as much, if not more chance under the right conditions to hand you a fecal sandwich as the wing.
For your own sake, don't be complacent in this aircraft with ice. It may be the cutest kitty you've seen but if placed in certain situations (which you may not recognize initially), it can easily show its fangs.
Not necessarily, and I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is to be a BETTER ATR pilot, you'd better understand its history, what others didn't know then and the lessons their loss can teach you.
Personally, it think it unlikely that the wing will screw you. I think the tail has just as much, if not more chance under the right conditions to hand you a fecal sandwich as the wing.
For your own sake, don't be complacent in this aircraft with ice. It may be the cutest kitty you've seen but if placed in certain situations (which you may not recognize initially), it can easily show its fangs.
06-13-2009 | 05:16 AM
#46
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
I understand your point completely and respect it.
I am never complacent with ice - it doesn't matter what airplane I'm flying. The truth of the matter is I don't like ice very much and I learned that lesson the hard way many years ago in a C-172. I don't enjoy fecal sandwiches.
Thank you for a well put post.
I am never complacent with ice - it doesn't matter what airplane I'm flying. The truth of the matter is I don't like ice very much and I learned that lesson the hard way many years ago in a C-172. I don't enjoy fecal sandwiches.
Thank you for a well put post.
BTW, no my initials aren't R.M.........but I believe I know who you're talking about. If correct, he was a junior F/O at the time of Roselawn (DFW based) and many referred to him as "skippy" because he looked so young (and was), but he is a nice guy. I already had several thousand hours in the aircraft when he was learning it the year prior as a new hire (most junior in his ATR class). I flew with him several times.
There were no ATR's "above" 4184 at LUCIT at that time. Several were on the OXI arrival but not holding at the worst part of the ice downwind of Lake Michigan. Several layers of winds aloft were out of the northeast bringing a lot of moisture along the south shore of the lake that's an ice factory with the right temps and to those that tout icing, the upper Great Lakes can hold the title of "worst" with anywhere.
06-13-2009 | 05:20 AM
#47
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
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Yes, anywhere that has a decent body of water to draw moisture from is trouble. A decent lifting source like terrain (SEA or the northeast) aggrivates it as well promoting the formation of super-cooled droplets that freeze after contact and have rolled back behind protected areas. 4184 was operating very close to a strong low at the time so they had all the lift and moisture they needed.
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