Congress to Hold News Conference to Announce
07-29-2009 | 08:55 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,154
Likes: 0
From: none ya...
/warning: wild guess from someone in the same position as you
If I had to make a prediction right now, of what would happen if this passed as proposed...it would be that all existing 121 pilots get grandfathered in, furloughed pilots have to meet the new rules, and whether or not you can keep your seniority varies from company to company.
For all purposes, you and I are unemployed. We do not work at our respective airlines in any capacity. All we have is a contractual promise of a recall before additional new hires. That means as much to the government as our deadhead pay, or callout times (i.e. nothing).
Unless the government is lobbied specifically to ADD grandfather clause for furloughed pilots (and all the folks who were hired at 500 hours but have since broken 1500 will ***** and moan to ALPA that it's not worth the time), it's back to CFI'ing for us.
Of course, this assumes it even passes as proposed. The RAA can publicly say they support it, and lobby to the opposite.
And despite this, I still would support the rule. As inconvenient as it would be. Although I do think true ATP mins (not just 1500 hours) is a little bit more than is needed to address their concerns.
If I had to make a prediction right now, of what would happen if this passed as proposed...it would be that all existing 121 pilots get grandfathered in, furloughed pilots have to meet the new rules, and whether or not you can keep your seniority varies from company to company.
For all purposes, you and I are unemployed. We do not work at our respective airlines in any capacity. All we have is a contractual promise of a recall before additional new hires. That means as much to the government as our deadhead pay, or callout times (i.e. nothing).
Unless the government is lobbied specifically to ADD grandfather clause for furloughed pilots (and all the folks who were hired at 500 hours but have since broken 1500 will ***** and moan to ALPA that it's not worth the time), it's back to CFI'ing for us.
Of course, this assumes it even passes as proposed. The RAA can publicly say they support it, and lobby to the opposite.
And despite this, I still would support the rule. As inconvenient as it would be. Although I do think true ATP mins (not just 1500 hours) is a little bit more than is needed to address their concerns.
.
Last edited by TPROP4ever; 07-29-2009 at 09:06 PM.
07-30-2009 | 02:39 AM
#74
Line Holder
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 338
Likes: 31
From a low time hire (lower than my airlines mins) due to hard work put into networking while I could have been logging hundreds or thousands of hours flight instructing, and a furloughed pilot, this is a very hard pill to swallow. I agree 100% that there needs to be changes in the industry and support anything that could lead to those changes. I often said while still working that if mainline were to man up and take back their flying I would not complain for a second about losing my job if needs be. However, as a furloughed pilot I have applied for every opportunity and not even seen an instructor job available to me. My airline at the time of furlough said to us that we didn't even need to remain current to retain our recall rights. I have found it unfortunately necessary to find work away from flying to maintain a livable lifestyle. If they reneg on their promise that flight time and currency is not required for recall it will be devestating to me as I am not close to ATP mins due to time spent on reserve with little flying.
Last edited by hemaybedid; 07-30-2009 at 02:41 PM. Reason: spelling
07-30-2009 | 02:42 AM
#75
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
I'm a huge believer in highly structured, mission oriented training programs like Lufthansa's direct entry program or those used by the US military. Every flight is specifically designed to train, evaluate, and provide experience that closely simulates what those pilots will experience on a daily basis. The academics are of a much higher caliber and far more comprehensive than the jokes that are the ATP written (or Inst., Commercial Pilot, CFI, etc.). In this sort of program candidates are ready to be co-pilots on day number one, regardless of actual flight hours.
[snip]
Personally, I'd rather see a formula that takes the type of training history into account and formalize minimum hiring requirements on that basis . . . not unlike the JAA, which has something like 14 pretty difficult exams plus sim rides to get fully checked out. Coupled that with a mentoring program mandating new airline hires fly with a highly expereinced captain and you'd actually improve safety. This will never, happen, of course.
[snip]
Personally, I'd rather see a formula that takes the type of training history into account and formalize minimum hiring requirements on that basis . . . not unlike the JAA, which has something like 14 pretty difficult exams plus sim rides to get fully checked out. Coupled that with a mentoring program mandating new airline hires fly with a highly expereinced captain and you'd actually improve safety. This will never, happen, of course.
1) Depending on how you define "highly experienced," a number of airlines might have difficulty scraping up enough captains to meet that criteria.
2) Again, given the recent circumstances, exactly how do we define "highly experienced?" Total time, years flying 121, time on type, check airman, some combination of all of the above?
3) I still think one gains a lot of good experience from both PIC time (be it CFI'ing, 135, or 91). Such a program pretty much eliminates that experience.
4) I also believe one gains experience (call it seasoning) from working as a pilot for a longer chronological period, particularly when it comes to dealing with weather (even more so when you are the PIC).
It certainly appears that Lufthansa's program is successful for them, but could such a program really work in the US, given the way incompetent managements have scuttled many of the carriers, mainline flying has been outsourced, ect?
Personally, I'd like to see a combination of both - some sort of requirement for more useful knowledge (rather than how many flight attendants, fire extinguishers, and megaphones are required) for the ATP written, perhaps even a board type exam. I would like to see the overall barrier to entry to the career raised, which would also help to reduce the glut of pilots which depresses compensation. Make the career a true profession, and insist we be appropriately compensated.
By doing so, you will improve the quality of pilots in the cockpit, in turn improve safety.
07-30-2009 | 07:08 AM
#76
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
Personally, I'd like to see a combination of both - some sort of requirement for more useful knowledge (rather than how many flight attendants, fire extinguishers, and megaphones are required) for the ATP written, perhaps even a board type exam. I would like to see the overall barrier to entry to the career raised, which would also help to reduce the glut of pilots which depresses compensation. Make the career a true profession, and insist we be appropriately compensated.
By doing so, you will improve the quality of pilots in the cockpit, in turn improve safety.
By doing so, you will improve the quality of pilots in the cockpit, in turn improve safety.
Need for Stronger Academic Emphasis
The Joint Aviation Authority (JAA), now the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), and FAA pilot licensing requirements are both ICAO-compliant. The single biggest difference between EASA and FAA is knowledge requirements. The FAA theoretical knowledge is simply not as demanding as EASA, which has 14 written exams versus one by the FAA, which is a multiple-choice exam. The EASA exams require the student to be tested for 30-40 hours. By stark contrast, the FAA publishes its exam questions with answers provided so a student can purchase them, study the questions, and pass its single exam. Examination questions are not available for EASA exams in such a manner.
The least demanding Federal Aviation Regulations which govern commercial pilot license requirements (i.e., §61.125 and §61.155) specify the aeronautical knowledge requirements for commercial and airline transport pilot ratings. These rules were written decades ago, when there was no expectation that they would be used as minimum standards to train pilots to take jobs as airline first officers. The requirements emphasize weather and navigation, including interaction with air traffic control. There is some mention of aircraft aerodynamics and human factors, including aeronautical decision making and judgment as well as crew resource management. The regulations allow self-study and many such training courses emphasize passing the test rather than learning the material. We do not feel these requirements are adequate to prepare a professional airline pilot. The ground instruction of these subjects needs to be strengthened with required formal classroom academic instruction and more extensive testing and examination.
The EASA-approved training course for a commercial airline pilot tends to be rather structured and rigorous. FAA should develop and implement a corollary ground school and testing process in FAR Part 121 for all pilots who seek commercial airline careers. Testing akin to the quality of the Certified Public Accountant (CPA) exams or bar exam for attorneys would benefit aviation by serving as a screening tool to ensure that, in the future, only the most knowledgeable and dedicated pilots join the ranks of airline pilots.
07-30-2009 | 07:22 AM
#77
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
Here is the bill
H.R.3371
Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...1dITbcW:e1162:
Airline Safety and Pilot Training Improvement Act of 2009
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...1dITbcW:e1162:
Last edited by Nevets; 07-30-2009 at 07:33 AM.
07-30-2009 | 07:37 AM
#78
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
L I B!
(Well, I'll Be!!!)
I honestly haven't yet read ALPA's paper on this. I encouraged to see that they and I are on the same page for a change. I'll have to read the rest of this. Thanks!
(Well, I'll Be!!!)
I honestly haven't yet read ALPA's paper on this. I encouraged to see that they and I are on the same page for a change. I'll have to read the rest of this. Thanks!
07-30-2009 | 07:40 AM
#79
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,934
Likes: 0
From: EMB 145 CPT
http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pre...-09written.pdf
http://www.alpa.org/portals/alpa/pre...-09written.pdf
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
