I do NOT think every captain is on a power trip. I don't want to give that impression. I can only think of a very very small number of captains with power trip issues whom I've flown with. I always respect their experience and knowledge. They are usually twice my age with tons of time in the plane and in the air.
The ones who are on power trips stand out more than the good ones and we tend to focus on those guys/gals.

 

YES YES YES....XJT was to blame. Dispatch kept saying "We can get you out...we have built a good route for you. It looks good. We'll send you south and then back to the north if we have to...etc." That is BAD dispatching. It was a non-assertive hub manager who didn't demand to talk to the right people in RST. Dispatch didn't even suggest to cancel the flight. They were bent on getting this plane off the ground and to MSP. They didn't plan well. There was no plan once the plane got on the ground in RST. It was breakdown of communication and I can't figure out why people can't see that. Ultimately, it was the captain's reaction to the whole breakdown. That's what it comes down to.

 

It's curious that you make a definitive statement that you can "say specifically" that the ramp agents did not know how to do something, yet a few posts later, you chastise someone else for having an opinion that also was not there. Please explain?

Wait, what? Override what exactly? An airline employee's decision on how to handle an IROP or thier own aircraft? I've never seen that happen, nor should it ever. Airport ops does not work for the airline, and nearly 100% of the time, are not trained by the operator to handle the airlines aircraft or passengers. Barring an actual emergency, an ops agent pulling servicing equipment up to a plane that they aren't qualified to operate and causing aircraft damage, would be a difficult thing to explain under the justification that the ramp wasn't "getting the job done". And how far does this extend? Deice? Pax accomodation/reaccomodation/issues? Is it an accepted practice then to refer pax to airport ops when they feel that the airline has in someway wronged them? Of course it isn't. The job of the airport ops is to maintiain the airport and it's facillities for the use of it's rent paying tennants. And it's not just the gound operation that is the tennant, it's the entire operation of the airline. I would also dispute the notion that all airport ops agents are pilots. Most have degrees in airport managment or some other disipline of management, with certainly a few exceptions. Thier career ladder is upward toward managment of the airport and not an airline. If I'm missing something, and this is a sarcasm free comment, honestly, please let me know.

Public safety agencies operate under a "mutual aid" edict, that basically states that police/fire/EMS from one city will assist an agency from a neigboring city if called upon to do so. Perhaps there are some lessons to extrapolate from that practice that might alleviate a situation like this from happening again.

 

As a former XJT CA, if I got paperwork and there were alternates around I could really use then I went and I dealt with the weather enroute. If I didn't make it I diverted but I only did that 3 times in 5.5 years. Warn the folks and then go, try to get there and then if necessary divert. Weclome to the big boy/girl world, nexrad isn't everything and this isn't a student going out for a solo cross country, its your job now to go from A to B when they tell you. If you don't like it, work the ramp.

With that said, XJ and Coex should be hammered for what happened. XJT should not send aircraft to OAL alternates where they have no ops. In that way its their own damn fault unless because of weather RST was the only viable airport to land out once they were near MSP. But if they were dispatched to MSP with RST as the alternate then XJT ought to get nailed.

If handling that flight was XJ's responsibility and they knew the plane was coming and had accepted to take the plane then they should get sued because they obviously didn't handle it right.

I'll split the difference and say both operators ought to face the blame. As a passenger I'd sue both operators for failing to do their job or to act in good faith.

As to what the crew did, we weren't there. So opine all you want but you weren't there. Signature maybe open 24/7, but are you sure it wasn't asked? Are you sure they didn't ask the fire department? Are you sure they didn't cuss out their own dispatcher? Are you sure they didn't look for a latter? Are you sure they weren't in a position where they couldn't taxi out? Are you sure if you had pulled in the gate, realized the issue and tried to power back with your own engines that you wouldn't get fired because this situation was not an emergency? Are you sure the chalks would've been out anyways? I don't ever ever remember reading anywhere in any book, not saying its not true but these options are not presented to crews, that hey, you can deplane anywhere if need be. Its a nice thought but when you're told there is a $10,000 fine for messing up 1 thing on a backup paper weight and balance then by all means you should assume not completing a flight, deplaning on a ramp and having passengers walk out of that FBO and disappear would not result in FAA fines of tremendous proportions. There is no list of fines and violations at a pilots disposal fwiw and frankly did the crew thing at 1am that this would last till 6? Probably not, you keep working and working on a solution and before you know it its 2, then 3, then 4. Then something good is coming then it doesn't, don't do that just wait will do this, now its 5, oh wait, its 6, here they come.

As to someone's earlier question about offloading an ERJ with no airstair in an emergency the answer is you jump. Its a high jump and it is absolutely dangerous and people will absolutely get hurt, there is no way around it. I jumped it a few times for various reasons and you get a sting when you do it and sitting and then jumping isn't that great either. It lends to your feet getting sucked under the bend of fuselage as you go and then get ready for a concrete face plant. Hence as a CA we were told to think twice about evacuating due to probable injuries, it may have been in writing or it still might be in writing.

 

I have listened to all of the recorded conversations that have been released. I'm sure not ALL of the recorded conversations have been released but a good number of them have.
No they didn't talk to Signature, No the fire departement wasn't called, No the captain did not cuss out the dispatcher, No latter was ever mentioned, No they weren't in a position where the couldn't taxi out, No there is no issue with powering out of ANY of the gates in RST. (I fly in and out of there all the time). American Eagle powers out of their gate in the ERJ, as do we in the CRJ. No mention of anyone ever coming up to the airplane so who knows if the chalks were ever set. They kept talking about getting out of dodge quickly so I doubt the chalks were set. They weren't getting ANY service from anyone on the ground.

 

Enough with the APU fire/ smoke evacuation crap. If you want the passengers off the airplane don't pull out a bogus excuse. Bringing it up makes everyone look unproffesional.

Forgot to bid, nice logical post. This whole thread has turned into a broken record. Take a look at the last eight pages and nothing new or productive has been posted.

 

Last post on the subject from me! THIS picture sums it ALL UP!

Photos: De Havilland Canada DHC-8-202Q Dash 8 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

 

Just to be fair to XJ they had some Delta North flights divert and were in line to be handled before the XE flight. When they made the arrangment to help out XE, they didn't have their own diverts. Now the agent made a bonehead move by telling the dispatcher that "she has to go" and not contacting the station manager and getting them involved. She obviously didn't want to take resposibility for the Continental pax; most likely due to fear of getting in trouble with the TSA.

 

I can. I worked the ramp for years. Specifics were given on what was said by ramp personnel. They didn't know their SIDA procedures. I'm not saying they were the only people to make mistakes either.

 

They should have ordered some pizza and beer. That's what I do when I've got nothing going on.