Originally Posted by Mason32

You should not have restricted it to only first class medicals, since FO's are not required to have one. You typically have to have a first to get hired, but most companies do not require that FO's maintain the first until they prepare to upgrade... so, you are possibly missing up to half of the 121 pilots flying...

Originally Posted by WEACLRS

As an old business analyst I occasionally take a look at the number of pilots available vs the number employed. The pilots included in the following numbers are those in the FAA pilot database that are US citizens, hold an ATP with active first class medical in 2009 and 2010, or hold a CMEL with a first class medical in 2009 and 2010.

In January of 2008 there were 104,100 pilots in the FAA database that fit that group. Today there are 94,300, a drop of almost 10,000 pilots. (There are in addition 5470 ATPs or CMELs that have first class medicals that expired in 2008 and have not been renewed)

In January 2008, using data from APC and AirInc, there were 93800 active pilots (not furloughed) employed by major and regional, fractional, and cargo carriers. That equates to an employment rate of 90%. If you factor in a conservative estimate of 5% of the Jan 2008 total pilot group being ineligible for a pilot position for either new medical or background issues, the employment rate would have been 95%.

Today using data from APC, there are 87400 active pilots for an employment rate of 92%. If you factor in those who have let their first class medical lapse (the 5470 pilots with medical dates in 2008), but are otherwise eligible, the employment rate currently would be 87%. Reducing the pilot pool by the same 5% of expected ineligibles, the current employment rate would be 92%.

Based on these numbers and assumptions, there are about 7000 pilots available who hold the right certificates, active or very recent medical, and are not ineligible for other reasons (poor employment history, back-ground check problems, retired, ect.) currently without a major, regional, cargo, or factional job. This number is slightly less than the number in Jan 2008. Many of these pilots may be employed in part 91 operations, are overseas (employment numbers don't include airlines like Cathay Pacific or Emirates), or are actively looking.

The total number of new student pilot certificates is down significantly. There are currently a total of 51200 student pilots in the FAA database. Historically between 5% and 10% of these may become at least CMEL holders, or 2500 to 5000. However, 11800 of those expire or expired this year and 10800 expire next year. These certificates were issued two to three years ago and have not been upgraded. Assuming the certificates that are newer are more active, that leaves a number of active student pilots at 28600. If history repeats itself (and loan money for flight training is scarce), 1400 to 2800 of these may become at least CMEL's.

The potential pool of pilots out there is less than one might expect. New student starts this year under the age of 40 are less than 5000 pilots. In recent years this number has been closer to 10000 on average. If the bill in congress does pass, and holding an ATP is the min requirement to hold a part 121 job and probably a fractional position, the pool will shrink significantly. In March of 2008 when the hiring reached it's peak and many "wet-ticket" 260 hour CMEL's were being hired, bonuses where being paid to get them and first year salaries were going up, especially at non-union carriers. I admit I'm an optimist, but I see nothing in the numbers to think that the shortage will not quickly be the same again when the hiring starts.

Originally Posted by Mason32

You should not have restricted it to only first class medicals, since FO's are not required to have one. You typically have to have a first to get hired, but most companies do not require that FO's maintain the first until they prepare to upgrade... so, you are possibly missing up to half of the 121 pilots flying...

Originally Posted by Convairator

Furthermore, this data is not accurate because many of the current pilots including myself whom hold ATP certificates and first class medicals are not working for an airline, nor are seeking employment with an airline. Many of us work for small flight operations, corporate, charter, air ambulance, firefighting, flight education, etc. Most corporate pilots have higher insurance minimums to meet, and therefore the majority hold ATP certificates. There are also a fair amount of pilots whom fly for leisure in their own aircraft and have careers entirely unrelated to aviation, whom pursue advanced ratings (such as an ATP) because they enjoy flying. This gives them reduced insurance rates as well as an added safety margin and greater overall knowledge of the sytem.

Simply having an ATP and first class medical does not render you an airline pilot, or unemployed seeking airline work.

Originally Posted by WEACLRS

Most major airlines now require FO's to keep first class medicals. If you initially obtained a first class medical that expires in 2008, 2009, or 2010 and you let it go more than six months, it is still a first class, but with second class privileges. You would be included in these numbers. You are correct in that those who never obtained a first class medical (I'm unaware of any 121 airline that will hire without one), and are a still a CMEL would not be included in the total pilot pool. However, that would happen at only a few of the regional airlines and maybe the fractional's. Total regional airline pilots are still less than 18500. Half would be FO's, say 9250. I bet most initially held a first class physical. Would you pursue the career without making sure you could hold one?

Originally Posted by Mason32

That is factually incorrect. The airlines require potential new hires to have a first class medical when being hired.... for exactly the reason you cite - to ensure they CAN get one. Once hired, and since the majority of the time the airline pays for the medical ceritificate, they do not require FO's to keep a first class medical. So, when their initial first class expires and reverts to 2nd class they continue to work. When that expires, they go get a new 2nd class medical since it is all that is required, and is cheaper.

Yes, they do have to have one to get hired, but not to remain employed. So, after their first reverts to second, then expires... the new issue will be a 2nd class and they don't appear in your study.


Also, you need to clarify what you are talking about when you say major airlines, and when you say regional airlines. There are MANY airlines operating regional type equipment that the Federal Govt lists as being Major airlines...
Likewise there are large aircraft operators who are not even 1/10th the size of what some people call regionals.

Originally Posted by WEACLRS

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this. I think most FO's still go in and renew their medical once a year as a first and then get a new one twelve months later. I know I did as did my fellow pilots.

Originally Posted by WEACLRS

As an old business analyst I occasionally take a look at the number of pilots available vs the number employed. The pilots included in the following numbers are those in the FAA pilot database that are US citizens, hold an ATP with active first class medical in 2009 and 2010, or hold a CMEL with a first class medical in 2009 and 2010.

In January of 2008 there were 104,100 pilots in the FAA database that fit that group. Today there are 94,300, a drop of almost 10,000 pilots. (There are in addition 5470 ATPs or CMELs that have first class medicals that expired in 2008 and have not been renewed)

In January 2008, using data from APC and AirInc, there were 93800 active pilots (not furloughed) employed by major and regional, fractional, and cargo carriers. That equates to an employment rate of 90%. If you factor in a conservative estimate of 5% of the Jan 2008 total pilot group being ineligible for a pilot position for either new medical or background issues, the employment rate would have been 95%.

Today using data from APC, there are 87400 active pilots for an employment rate of 92%. If you factor in those who have let their first class medical lapse (the 5470 pilots with medical dates in 2008), but are otherwise eligible, the employment rate currently would be 87%. Reducing the pilot pool by the same 5% of expected ineligibles, the current employment rate would be 92%.

Based on these numbers and assumptions, there are about 7000 pilots available who hold the right certificates, active or very recent medical, and are not ineligible for other reasons (poor employment history, back-ground check problems, retired, ect.) currently without a major, regional, cargo, or factional job. This number is slightly less than the number in Jan 2008. Many of these pilots may be employed in part 91 operations, are overseas (employment numbers don't include airlines like Cathay Pacific or Emirates), or are actively looking.

The total number of new student pilot certificates is down significantly. There are currently a total of 51200 student pilots in the FAA database. Historically between 5% and 10% of these may become at least CMEL holders, or 2500 to 5000. However, 11800 of those expire or expired this year and 10800 expire next year. These certificates were issued two to three years ago and have not been upgraded. Assuming the certificates that are newer are more active, that leaves a number of active student pilots at 28600. If history repeats itself (and loan money for flight training is scarce), 1400 to 2800 of these may become at least CMEL's.

The potential pool of pilots out there is less than one might expect. New student starts this year under the age of 40 are less than 5000 pilots. In recent years this number has been closer to 10000 on average. If the bill in congress does pass, and holding an ATP is the min requirement to hold a part 121 job and probably a fractional position, the pool will shrink significantly. In March of 2008 when the hiring reached it's peak and many "wet-ticket" 260 hour CMEL's were being hired, bonuses where being paid to get them and first year salaries were going up, especially at non-union carriers. I admit I'm an optimist, but I see nothing in the numbers to think that the shortage will not quickly be the same again when the hiring starts.