XJT undercut AWAC?
 

Congrats to XJT, first off.

Time to play devils advocate.

ExpressJet guys are always in a hurry to slam anyone for undercutting them- CHQ, CJC, and UCA.

But-

Can you guys defend how your concessionary contract undercut AWAC (who is also operating under a concessionary contract)?

Newarkblows, Clocks? Biggest whiners on the board...lets hear it.

Oh heeeeere we go. Resident "XJT stole my flying" guy.

Isn't there another thread on APC about how AWAC MGT came to the pilots and told them to get the UAL flying they would need to take a 16% pay cut. Well here is the truth, if you turn it down someone else will take it. It is simple as that.
News flash AWAC is operating under a concessionary contract......SO IS EVERYONE ELSE. And when it comes down to it AWAC's concessionary contract is pretty good compared to others.
If your going to get picky then I would have to say AWAC STOLE their flying from PSA, who stole it from Mainline.
Lets just leave it at EVERYONE stole EVERYONE ELSES FLYING
Just put your head down do your job and don't worry about what bobby is doing in his CRJ/ERJ/DASH/SAAB.........

Most likely but it was necessary for them You can't blame management they're already losing money on airplanes. Best of luck to Expressjet pilots and hopefully this can actually bring some of the furloughed back so there's movement out there. Still, Expressjet will be flying this at a loss which is not good for anyone except UA. There is no way they can underbid TSA, it's an impossibility. TSA has at least 20-30% cheaper operating costs. That is why UA signed them on after TSA said no and after AWAC refused to take pay cuts for the flying. Obviously nothing wrong with this, better use of idling airplanes and pilots but to say that Expressjet is a beacon of hope over all others is not very realistic considering the latest fad for regionals it pay to play for new flying.

As far as TSA, I never believed they would get this flying. This was WAY too big for TSA, the usual big time heavy event at TSA is when they're able to borrow 1 or 2 airplanes from another regional for the summer.

There's a difference between one company undercutting another with better efficiency, aircraft usage, accepting lower profit margins, etc...and one pilot group undercutting another with lower wages, contracts, QOL, etc.

I don't know how xjt mgmt managed to spin the books to make this into a good deal, and I don't care. I know xjet's pilot pay is untouched by this and the xjt concessionary pay/contract are very competitive with awacs concessionary pay/contracts.

As others have stated, and i agree with, xjet getting flying is only the "best of the bad options". The only good option is mainline getting the flying, but its not going to happen, ever, under any circumstances.

I don't fly for XJT but I hope you all received the ground contract out of IAD too.. Lets face it CJC, CHQ, UCA and XJT will all agree AWAC ground crew sucks balls. I'm tired of getting in trouble b/c of those guys.

It is a valid question for those few who love to point at others but never at themselves.

I do not directly have a dog in this fight (mesa, XJET, or AirWisc) but some people on here do live the double standard.

Flying shifted from XJet to Colgan = Bad?
Flying shifted to XJet instead of Air Wisc is Good? Even though AirWiskey would not give more concessions to secure the flying?

If Newarkblows truly cares about the profession he would have wanted this flying to go to the airline who would refuse to take further concessions to secure flying (AirWiskey).


But whatever...I'm going to get drunk and play Call of Duty

What are these bad options? AWAC? TSA? Please explain.

Is this 100% accurate that AWAC management came to the MEC to ask for paycuts to get this flying?

I gotta tell you I have known for a while that there was a VERY VERY VERY VERY good chance that we were going to get this flying.........

TSA, Mesa, Colgan

AWAC and Xjet = "best"
Did xjet take concessions to secure this flying?

and here starts another wonderful, fight between two pilot groups about who screwed whom....boy it never ends and I will not miss 121....

I'm an Air Wisconsin pilot and I personally congratulate XJT guys on this flying. I have no hard feelings towards any of them.

To be honest; I and MANY AWAC pilots wanted this more than anything. I commute from DSM to DCA through ORD so you can see why. If not us, I'm glad it's you guys. I have lots of friends at XJT and after close review of your contract I feel XJT deserves this flying.

If anyone wants to see the very thing that United did to Air Wisconsin in 2003-2005 take a look at XJT. CAL has been whipsawing CHQ and Colgan against XJT for a few years now and it needs to END! The undercutting of wages, benefits, and overall QOL at CHQ and Colgan will forever have an impact on all XJT crews.

IMHO ExpressJet did not undercut Air Wisconsin

At first glance, this thread appeared to me nothing more than flame-bait the mods will yank faster than a Ben Affleck movie's theater run.

But wait...on closer inspection, DMEarc may well have pulled off the genius move of the year. With a sucker move that would make Cashius Clay envious, all the thread-hijackers will flock to this thread like the salmon of Capistrano. Now AirWillie, GoAround, FlyASA, SkyHigh, etc., can duke it out ad-infinitum while the rest go about with thoughtful, sometimes humorous debate! Sheer Brilliance!!

My hat's off to you sir! (okay...I really never wore the hat much to begin with)

That's exactly the sentiment that was posted on the expressjet pilots forum when we found out awac was in the running somewhere.

Huh? I'm an ex-Colgan, CAL furloughee.

Many of my arguments are for mainline taking back flying. But this regional vs. regional war has got to stop. XJT isn't any better than AWAC isn't any better than ASA isn't better than Cape Air.

Can't put SKYW in there because they don't care about thier futures as evident by their 35% ALPA vote.

Now to your point....
I argue much on behalf of th
e Colgan guys simply because they really get a bad rap from XJT for stealing flying. It isn't ANY regionals flying to begin with. PERIOD. You're managements' lease it from the mainline carrier. End of story.

But again- if any carrier should have won the flying...it should have been AWAC or XJT.

Sad thing is our company has not said a word about it. I wish they would have the nutz to say it's over....or IS IT?!?!?!?!?

No...it's over...

As usual you're managing to speculate on that which you do not know anything about. First, show me the terms of the agreement where it actually shows that we're doing this flying at a loss. Everything that has been released or communicated to us today indicate that the final details of the CPA are still pending. Second when comparing apples to apples the XJT and AWAC contract are pretty even. AWAC does have a few provisions that we don't have, but we're both above average by leaps and bounds particularly when you compare it to 70 seat operators that pay 50 seat wages, and/or have subpar contracts.

As I mentioned earlier today, the only losers here today are J.O., Hulas, Bedford and the likes.

That is a pretty contradictory statement.

No, it's not. XJT didn't take additional concessions to secure the UAL flying. XJT took concessions after they'd (we'd) lost the Delta and Branded flying, and faced large block hour reductions from CAL.

Let me say this again: The XJT pilot group has not been approached for additional pay cuts to secure this flying.

Don't listen to DMEArc. As a former Colgan pilot, he has had a hard-on for XJT for awhile now.

I quote from a previous, now locked thread: "ExpressJet sucks...You're the reason I'm furloughed."

Nice try...DMEArc. Go stir the pot somewhere else.

And for the record, XJT did not take any concessions to secure this flying. I truly hope AWAC can secure some flying soon.

NO THEY DID NOT

It was rhetorical. Take a deep breath.

Economies of scale people. XJT is a much larger company and thus has a much lower cost structure.

You'll have to forgive the brother, this is the first piece of good news we've gotten in a while around these parts, and having people post lies and speculation is certainly in poor taste and it shows the caliber of some of the people that work in the industry...I guess some tools just slip through the cracks.

I got what you were saying though.

Cheers

I'm furloughed xjet btw...

This flying wont bring me back though.

This is just a pure educated guess on my part, but if you're in the top 150, I think there's a chance you'll see the inside of an embraer sometime in the near future. Again, I have no actual concrete evidence of such, just some funny math....

I feel your pain. I'm pretty happy where I'm at, but 402 time gets old after about 1000 hours of it. I'm almost 300 down on the furlough list and am a little disappointed that if we don't get back on this round, it may be a while yet.

Just last Friday there was a meeting requesting concessions and clearly the intent was to associate the concessions with the securing of a contract.

If you figure of the 347, 275 will eventually accept recall (wild ass guess).

If the UAL recall brings back 100 (optimistic), that means after this deal there will still be ~ 175 who will eventually accept recall.

After the initial recall they probably wont recall any more in 2010, since 10 UAL planes leave in October.

So starting in Spring 2011, xjet needs to start recalling to handle attrition, we're down to just 6 months worth of recalls, and everyone is back by fall 2011. Without the UAL flying recalls would have been over 9 months worth of classes, and would have had to extend to Spring 2012.

At least that's my completely-unsubstantiated-wild-ass-guess of how the next few years will play out.

Don'y forget that AWAC's owners demand a much higher profit margin.

Which is why I think AWAC is done in 2015... The owners live in a time where majors cannot pay the profit margin they demand.

They are smart guys they can invest in other things and put the CRJ's to pasture.

I dont know why people even care who gets United flying anyway I predict UNITED will file Chapters 11 in about 18 months anyway, United is Bleeding right now and the inevitable will come anyway..

XJT the company might have undercut AWAC the company...but let's not confuse a management decision with a pilot group decision.

Then again, looking back at the multitude of closed anti-RAH threads, its clear to me that many on this board can't differentiate between the two...

So, Hold on..... Is it to the point that regionals are now paying mjors to fly for them? (I.E. the shares of stock to United). If so that is close to the BS that Republic pulled with the MidWest BS.

No offense but nothing in this statement is correct. Paying majors vs loaning money with interest is two different things. For the rest of the inaccuracies there's a lot of reading you can do on this forum.

None taken. I don't sit at home and read the forums, just pop in from time to time. Now, I do believe what RAH mgmt did to MidWest's majors death is BS actually just sad. BTW, do you guys know the interest rate for the loan?

To the OP, come on man, are you kidding? I"m a whisky pilot and I'm VERY, VERY happy this went to Xjet. I don't care what the terms are, I'm happy it went to a carrier with a stand up contract. Now, that's not to say I wouldn't want that flying in house, you have no idea how old it gets to fly with someone who is *****in the whole time about their commute. I feel bad, and I would have LOVE to seen this come to AWAC. But there is no chance in HELL anyone would take a pay cut to get this flying. Yes the company came to us and asked for it, but there is no chance that'd ever happen. End of story. Let's all just be happy the cards fell they way they did.

DMEARC answered his own question with his second post. It didnt matter who got the flying as long as it was a company that pays its pilots a liveable wage and treats them with a modicum of respect. Colgan, Mesa, Great Lakes, ... if they gain flying it is a bad thing for this profession because their pilots are barely scraping by. AWAC, Skywest, Horizon, XJT, Eagle.... you can at least make a living and have a comfortable QOL. I feel bad for the Mesa folks but their management is scum just like at colgan, great lakes, etc... They dont respect their employees one bit.

I always find it amusing when a pilot for one of these undercutters is trying to turn the situation around and justify their choice in working for a bad company. A lot of them will never know what a good airline is or what it means to have a good contract. They keep wondering why everyone hates their company and cant understand that other pilots flying SMALLER or same size aircraft are getting paid more, getting a decent retirement account, are home more, have better travel benefits, have better medical benefits, have better vacation policies, have better sick call policies,... the list goes on and on. Its day and night between what an XJT/AWAC/Skywest is and what a colgan/mesa is.

It really isnt that hard to understand but many just want to keep trying to make it seem ok and hopefully they will move on to a major soon enough. What happens when they get to a major and realize they got screwed by their previous regional? they get ****ed at the whole regional system (a la dmearc).

I didnt really have a problem with CHQ coming down to Houston until they did such a horrible job in the beginning. Their aircraft came from the desert (partly XJT's fault), they didnt have ACARS, they were weight restricted 80% of the time they were anywhere near full, and i think a very select few of their very, vocal FO's are flamebaiters... other then that i really didnt have a problem with them. Now i have a problem with the 99 seat FO pay but thats another story.

DMEARc got burned by the same system that could have had him as a 2 yr FO at a major by 26... it was a gamble and he is ****ed. I dont really blame him but i wouldn't be in his shoes. Furloughs happen, scope is gone for a very long time, and regionals exist... those are givens in this industry and they have been for 10 yrs. I think he is a hypocrite for being so anti-regionals after working at Colgan of all places but we have discussed this in another thread.

I will never understand the Colgan people. It is a job but little else. Some still refuse to see the differences between places like AWAC, XJT, Skywest, Eagle and the places they work. Do you guys really think that Colgan is just like XJT or AWAC with a different name? If you do then you are in for a rude awakening.

I agree 100%. If JO had weaseled his way into a new contract with United it would have been a bad day for this profession. I feel bad for the Mesa pilots but i feel nothing for their management.

It was a gamble and it will pay-off. For now I am finishing up law school. When I get recalled I will go back to mainline seniority number.

I don't justify the way Colgan treats their people. I do, however, stick up for my fellow pilots at Colgan when they get bashed by people like you and Clocks.

Many many many people are happy at Colgan with their 18 days off and 100 hours of pay and 4 weeks vacation, company paid life insurance, etc. Some people aren't. And there are some SERIOUS room for improvements.

Good-night.