Recalls at RAH
12-03-2009, 03:21 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 722
Originally Posted by Rightseat Ballast
No, no, You got it all wrong. The IBT and BB are in on this together, and obviosuly BB has been in bed with TPG and MEH for YEARS now. Even the RAH EXCO has been dutifully keeping pay low just to help BB realize his master plan of buying a massive 25 aircraft airline, and the RAH pilots have been quietly helping this plot along the whole time. Conspiracy! Conspiracy! CONSPIRACY!!!!!!!
EVERYONE has been conspiring against the MEH pilots for years, because MEH pilots and their astronomical pay have been the biggest roadblock in this industry to lowering everyone's pay. They had to be wiped out, and now that team Republic has succeeded, we all do victory dances and buy our fearless CEO drinks every night. We NEEDED MEH, because there was no other way to break into the stand alone market. It's not like you can just go and buy an airline like Frontier, and instantly get 60 Airbuses. No, we needed MEH becuase that was the ONLY way we would ever get 190's. And without 190's, how would we ever be able to debase JetBlue's pay. Bedford has told us that the 190 is more than just an airplane... it is the ONLY way we could ever successfully destroy the industry. It is an instrument of God! He even showed us the "wrath of god" decals he plans to place on every 190 beginning in 2010.
Maybe it is just me, but this constant dribble about everyone being out to get the MEH pilots sounds just a little far fetched and ego-centric. I know that there are a bunch of stand up, level headed guys at Midwest who can see the situation for what it is, but unfortunately none of them post on this site.
RAH is recalling. As long as there are RAH pilots to recall, only they will be recalled to the RAH certificates. When the SLI is complete, the Midwest pilots will be put into aircraft as their seniority dictates. If the company won't send those guys to class, then please sue the heck out of the company. When you are entitled to something, go get it. For now, only a spot on the RAH seniority list entitles you to a seat in a RAH cockpit. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter. Ethics have been absent from law for years. What is written on paper is gospel, and for now the courts are preaching out of the book of RAH CBA. Midwest paint means nothing to the FAA, since the planes are on the RAH certificate. Apparently the courts don't think much of it either. Again, that is law, not our personal ethics at play. If my ethics mattered, there would be a whole slew of dead child molesters being taken away from the public gallows right now. If seniority was really so important, date of hire would be present in all mergers past. Good luck finding it.
I am really not a hard a$$, or a jerk. I am just getting real tired of this 'everyone is out to get us, no one cares about us' banter. Yes, it is a raw deal, and working for RAH will not be nearly as good as working for MEH. But Capitalism has many casualties, and the loss of your business is just one of thousands in the past few years. I feel bad for every person who has lost a job. I feel bad for the MEH pilots. But I don't feel any special sympathy for you. I have too many unemployed and underemployed family members to think that your case is special. I feel no guilt, because I have seen the life cycle of business on a personal level three times in my life, and I know exactly what I can control, and what is well beyond my sphere of influence. I know how hard this is on your families. I have been one of those families. Years later, I still am trying to help my parents through the consequences of capitalism and innovation in business. Life isn't pretty, and there aren't many 30 year careers left in this country. I honestly can't name a single person I know who has held employment for the same company for 30 years. Layoffs, closings, mergers...it catches up with us all at some point. Sorry it had to be you guys now.
EVERYONE has been conspiring against the MEH pilots for years, because MEH pilots and their astronomical pay have been the biggest roadblock in this industry to lowering everyone's pay. They had to be wiped out, and now that team Republic has succeeded, we all do victory dances and buy our fearless CEO drinks every night. We NEEDED MEH, because there was no other way to break into the stand alone market. It's not like you can just go and buy an airline like Frontier, and instantly get 60 Airbuses. No, we needed MEH becuase that was the ONLY way we would ever get 190's. And without 190's, how would we ever be able to debase JetBlue's pay. Bedford has told us that the 190 is more than just an airplane... it is the ONLY way we could ever successfully destroy the industry. It is an instrument of God! He even showed us the "wrath of god" decals he plans to place on every 190 beginning in 2010.
Maybe it is just me, but this constant dribble about everyone being out to get the MEH pilots sounds just a little far fetched and ego-centric. I know that there are a bunch of stand up, level headed guys at Midwest who can see the situation for what it is, but unfortunately none of them post on this site.
RAH is recalling. As long as there are RAH pilots to recall, only they will be recalled to the RAH certificates. When the SLI is complete, the Midwest pilots will be put into aircraft as their seniority dictates. If the company won't send those guys to class, then please sue the heck out of the company. When you are entitled to something, go get it. For now, only a spot on the RAH seniority list entitles you to a seat in a RAH cockpit. Right or wrong, it doesn't matter. Ethics have been absent from law for years. What is written on paper is gospel, and for now the courts are preaching out of the book of RAH CBA. Midwest paint means nothing to the FAA, since the planes are on the RAH certificate. Apparently the courts don't think much of it either. Again, that is law, not our personal ethics at play. If my ethics mattered, there would be a whole slew of dead child molesters being taken away from the public gallows right now. If seniority was really so important, date of hire would be present in all mergers past. Good luck finding it.
I am really not a hard a$$, or a jerk. I am just getting real tired of this 'everyone is out to get us, no one cares about us' banter. Yes, it is a raw deal, and working for RAH will not be nearly as good as working for MEH. But Capitalism has many casualties, and the loss of your business is just one of thousands in the past few years. I feel bad for every person who has lost a job. I feel bad for the MEH pilots. But I don't feel any special sympathy for you. I have too many unemployed and underemployed family members to think that your case is special. I feel no guilt, because I have seen the life cycle of business on a personal level three times in my life, and I know exactly what I can control, and what is well beyond my sphere of influence. I know how hard this is on your families. I have been one of those families. Years later, I still am trying to help my parents through the consequences of capitalism and innovation in business. Life isn't pretty, and there aren't many 30 year careers left in this country. I honestly can't name a single person I know who has held employment for the same company for 30 years. Layoffs, closings, mergers...it catches up with us all at some point. Sorry it had to be you guys now.
Originally Posted by DLAJ77
continuing justification...
this site is really just useless banter, but it does display how fragmented and broken this profession is. if management could see this they must laugh and give each other high fives for a job well done, this is exactly how they want it.
until then you just stay on your pedestal looking down at the regional guys who grind it out every day hoping for a something better. remember when?
12-03-2009, 08:49 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 1,105
Originally Posted by Husker402
Does anyone have an idea of what their minumums will be once they begin hiring?
Originally Posted by iPilot
The question is what are your personal minimums as far as work conditions and pay?
Are you willing to work for a company that is the only one in this economic downturn that is doing anything to improve its position? Are you willing to work for a company that is willing to think outside the box and make business decisions that are for the greater good of many while an unfortunate devastation to few?
The mins are most likely going to be dictated by politicians who know nothing about flying airplanes. The mins will also be dictated by the number of "qualified 121 applicants". The portion of people you see posting here is so small. Most in the industry don't read this banter and even more barely know it exists. People will apply banking on the stability of the company and the potential of a good contract in the future.
12-04-2009, 10:07 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by duvie
Bud, I'm not here to start a flamefest, and you shouldn't be either. Your company (not you or the pilot group personally) literally put an entire airline full of pilots out of a job, many of which who had 25+ years there and you're stoked because you might be hiring? 
You have to understand that this doesn't sit well with people. I understand you weren't rooting for MidWest's demise but a little sensitivity would go a long way from many of the Republic pilots.
You have to understand that this doesn't sit well with people. I understand you weren't rooting for MidWest's demise but a little sensitivity would go a long way from many of the Republic pilots.
12-04-2009, 10:17 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by dosbo
As long as BB can keep multiple livery's, supplies feed to mainline, and maintains subpar payscales he will be the CEO of a regional. Midwest has been transformed to a regional during this process (the brand is now worthless), I hope the same does not happen to Frontier. If BB wants to run a major airline he needs to pick a name, paint the planes the same color and get on with business. My opinion is he is quite happy orchestrating the chaos between pilot groups and reaping the benefits.
JO would be proud.
JO would be proud.
How long do you think it will be before the mainline carriers decide to stop feeding their now direct competition....
Delta tried to dump Mesa/Freedom and was told by a judge that there had been no substantial change in their business relationship to warrant a sanctioned breech/termination of their contract....
since BB aquired these large plane operators, RAH has now become direct competition, and not just a subcontractor feed provider. You may expect that once RAH has aquired the new equipment, several of the mainline companies will sue for contract termination on the basis of change of business relationship... RAH defaults, and everybody splits up the chunks of it they want. Meanwhile, BB rapes the place for all he can, and then sells it off like he did with BizEx to AMR.
12-04-2009, 10:22 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
Originally Posted by STILL GROUNDED
Are you willing to work for a company that is the only one in this economic downturn that is doing anything to improve its position? Are you willing to work for a company that is willing to think outside the box and make business decisions that are for the greater good of many while an unfortunate devastation to few?.
You've been drinking the RAH coolaid way too long if you think those statements are accurate.
12-04-2009, 10:32 AM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: E170/175 CA
Posts: 334
Originally Posted by Mason32
How long do you think it will be before the mainline carriers decide to stop feeding their now direct competition....
Delta tried to dump Mesa/Freedom and was told by a judge that there had been no substantial change in their business relationship to warrant a sanctioned breech/termination of their contract....
since BB aquired these large plane operators, RAH has now become direct competition, and not just a subcontractor feed provider. You may expect that once RAH has aquired the new equipment, several of the mainline companies will sue for contract termination on the basis of change of business relationship... RAH defaults, and everybody splits up the chunks of it they want. Meanwhile, BB rapes the place for all he can, and then sells it off like he did with BizEx to AMR.
Delta tried to dump Mesa/Freedom and was told by a judge that there had been no substantial change in their business relationship to warrant a sanctioned breech/termination of their contract....
since BB aquired these large plane operators, RAH has now become direct competition, and not just a subcontractor feed provider. You may expect that once RAH has aquired the new equipment, several of the mainline companies will sue for contract termination on the basis of change of business relationship... RAH defaults, and everybody splits up the chunks of it they want. Meanwhile, BB rapes the place for all he can, and then sells it off like he did with BizEx to AMR.
There has been fierce competition for MKE this year, and SW and AT have made big pushes for market share. Yet the legacy airlines, the ones that contract with RAH, have remained outside of the fray. I think there is more support for RAH among the majors than you think, even if they are just using BB as a leech to suck a little blood/cash from the LCC's.
12-04-2009, 11:19 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 755
Originally Posted by STILL GROUNDED
What he is... saying are you willing to work under a post 9/11 contract that was negotiated under the guidance of a corrupt attorney with the largest aircraft on property being a 50 seat regional jet at a company which was mostly transitional and had an average upgrade time for fo's of about 16 months?
Are you willing to work for a company that is the only one in this economic downturn that is doing anything to improve its position? Are you willing to work for a company that is willing to think outside the box and make business decisions that are for the greater good of many while an unfortunate devastation to few?
The mins are most likely going to be dictated by politicians who know nothing about flying airplanes. The mins will also be dictated by the number of "qualified 121 applicants". The portion of people you see posting here is so small. Most in the industry don't read this banter and even more barely know it exists. People will apply banking on the stability of the company and the potential of a good contract in the future.
Are you willing to work for a company that is the only one in this economic downturn that is doing anything to improve its position? Are you willing to work for a company that is willing to think outside the box and make business decisions that are for the greater good of many while an unfortunate devastation to few?
The mins are most likely going to be dictated by politicians who know nothing about flying airplanes. The mins will also be dictated by the number of "qualified 121 applicants". The portion of people you see posting here is so small. Most in the industry don't read this banter and even more barely know it exists. People will apply banking on the stability of the company and the potential of a good contract in the future.
Republic, and the guys and gals who work there, seem to take a lot of heat on this board for their current contract. I know nothing of the contract specifics, but I have compared hourly rates from this web site. It seems to me that their pay rates, with the exception of jetBlue, are about what ALPA has negotiatied elsewhere. Republic F.O. starts at 23, peaks in 4 yrs at 37. Republic Captain 170 is 59 1st yr and peaks at 108 yr 20. E-190 rates are 64 to 119/hr. Compass Capt rates start at 61 and peak at 101 yr 18. USAir rates are 41 to 52/hr for Fo(significantly better than Compass or Republic) but their Captain rates are 79 with a peak at yr 12 of 95/hr.
Also, many of the large jet charter/freight operators don't pay much, if any, better than Republic with the exception of 1st yr FO rates.
Take these numbers for what they're worth, but maybe some posters should lighten up a bit as to the rates. They are not really all that different than the rates at comparable airlines/equipt.
12-04-2009, 01:35 PM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: retired
Posts: 992
Originally Posted by MaxQ
I will add some info that may or may not be relevant, but here goes.
Republic, and the guys and gals who work there, seem to take a lot of heat on this board for their current contract. I know nothing of the contract specifics, but I have compared hourly rates from this web site. It seems to me that their pay rates, with the exception of jetBlue, are about what ALPA has negotiatied elsewhere. Republic F.O. starts at 23, peaks in 4 yrs at 37. Republic Captain 170 is 59 1st yr and peaks at 108 yr 20. E-190 rates are 64 to 119/hr. Compass Capt rates start at 61 and peak at 101 yr 18. USAir rates are 41 to 52/hr for Fo(significantly better than Compass or Republic) but their Captain rates are 79 with a peak at yr 12 of 95/hr.
Also, many of the large jet charter/freight operators don't pay much, if any, better than Republic with the exception of 1st yr FO rates.
Take these numbers for what they're worth, but maybe some posters should lighten up a bit as to the rates. They are not really all that different than the rates at comparable airlines/equipt.
Republic, and the guys and gals who work there, seem to take a lot of heat on this board for their current contract. I know nothing of the contract specifics, but I have compared hourly rates from this web site. It seems to me that their pay rates, with the exception of jetBlue, are about what ALPA has negotiatied elsewhere. Republic F.O. starts at 23, peaks in 4 yrs at 37. Republic Captain 170 is 59 1st yr and peaks at 108 yr 20. E-190 rates are 64 to 119/hr. Compass Capt rates start at 61 and peak at 101 yr 18. USAir rates are 41 to 52/hr for Fo(significantly better than Compass or Republic) but their Captain rates are 79 with a peak at yr 12 of 95/hr.
Also, many of the large jet charter/freight operators don't pay much, if any, better than Republic with the exception of 1st yr FO rates.
Take these numbers for what they're worth, but maybe some posters should lighten up a bit as to the rates. They are not really all that different than the rates at comparable airlines/equipt.
12-04-2009, 01:48 PM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
Originally Posted by Dougdrvr
I would think that you have been in this business long enough to know that there is SO much more to a good contract than rates. I agree with your analysis about comparitive rates but the RAH FO scale is a travesty! There is no reason it shouldn't be 60% of the CAPT rates all the way up the scale. Only a fool would think that the expeditious upgrades would continue.
....... +1
12-04-2009, 02:16 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 510
staple the RAH guys...then everyone on the forum will be happy. btw, how many planes did MEH bring to the mix?
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