lowflying

We are all ranked by merit; if we don't pass our check ride and line check we don't get paid. What metric would you like to use? The only metric that mangement wants to use is who will vote for crap pay raises the fastest. Some pilot groups are better than that than others in that area. Horizon voted in their rates 9+ years ago and only now are others coming close to matching their rates. And in that time, top notch outfits like express jet and Air Whiskey have been hammered because management could always found another group vying for their merit badges from management.

Nevets

Look, bottom line: when was the last Skywest pilots contributed to the industry? When did they participate in ARCs, commissions, testify before congress, the NTSB, file any appeals with the FAA, DOT, TSA, DHS, or courts? When was the last time that pilot group contributed to the development of safety devices, procedures or programs such as ASAP, FOQA, LOSA, etc? The last time any Skywest pilot made any case before a government body it was to the NMB, against a system of choosing legal representation the same way we chose any federally elected position.

This is NOT simply about your sub par pay and work rules!

duvie

We've had ASAP for quite some time, we have LOSA, we're now AQP and have FOQA, all programs run in conjuction with the FAA not a union. Our pilot representative board communicates with other MECs in the airline industry and we had another member of our pilot representative board testify in the hearing to change the rules for voting in a union (in favor of a union). I'm not trying to prove you wrong, but there seem to be some huge misconceptions about SkyWest. And I'll reiterate that we're paid a better wage than most of the union regional carriers out there.

Instead of getting mad at us, why don't you get frustrated with unionized pilot groups that agree to pay rates and work rules that are below ours? With the ALPA name on them, they're "keeping the bar lower" than SkyWest ever has. The SkyWest business model has always depended on fielding higher than average employees, so while XJT et al were "raising the bar" by hiring guys with 500 hours, we didn't let anybody in the door with less than 1,000. I'm not anti-union, I'm pro free thought. I just don't have much respect for people's arguments and rationale when they call me scum, proceed then to insist that their's is the only way of thinking, whilst they work for less money than I do. Its not a jab, it just doesn't compute for me.

Throughout history, tell me about a time when people threatened others into the "just" way of thinking. If your point is so apparent then you don't need to bully people into believing you. Some airlines are run better than others, perhaps the union issue is more of a red herring that keeps you busy fighting with each other rather than realizing that your company strategies are to blame rather than one part (AWAC, just as an example, is notorious for blaming pilot wages) of a large cost structure. Kinda like democrats and republican finger pointing and pumping out rhetoric to distract from their own corruption and inefficiency. I encourage everyone to think for themselves rather than subscribing to opinions formulated by somebody else.

goaround2000

Just to be clear, skywest's attempt at ASAP will keep you from certificate action, but because you don't have a union, hence no contract, there is no MOU to protect you from punitive action. I've personally met two people that were fired from skywest for things that under a real ASAP program would have been protected.

Also, just to be clear, because of our work rules, I still make more money than my 70 seat non-union counterparts flying a 50 seater.

So, I have to ask just as my co-worker did earlier, what has skywest done for this industry? What if we were to say only union carriers that have paid dues are allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labor? CASS, Crew Pass, fatigue reform, SMS, among others will only be for those who paid for it. Seems a bit fair, after all; you guys have done nothing to advance the profession.

BHopper88

Ok what are these "things" that are ASAP program don't protect from? Never heard of SkyWest firing a pilot for an asap after the fact, unless there was something more to the story. I do know if you are caught lieing after an event regardless of the ASAP, you will prob be fired. But again, if you are going about what a friend told you about them being fired, I doubt you heard the whole story.

BHopper88

WOW that ALPA KOOL-AID sounds GOOOOOOD.. Its amazing ALL the SkyWest PILOT GROUP HATER-AID you are spewing out, yet you want us to join the ALPA ranks... thanks for helping out the minority at SkyWest that actually want to join the "group" and start a drive.

I just laugh at people that like you that look at SkyWest as some coat riding scum, yet keep saying that if SkyWest was ALPA or union then maybe would could be considered an equal. Yes we at SkyWest need to at least get SAPA certified, but to say that we are nothing at that we have accomplished NOTHING to the industry is flat out wrong. What about all those pilots that left ALPA regionals to come work here BY CHOICE? So I guess all those at MESA MEC in their last contract brought a big feeling of PRIDE to the industry.

For example, who has been one of the leading voices to get UAL to honor the UAX priority for jumpseaters? Yup our SkyWest Sapa Pres...
What about working together with the CAL ALPA MEC to report scope violations with flying CAL routes. Again our SAPA pres.
So lay off on the crap that SkyWest pilots haven't at least tried to improve the industry when we can. Sure makes even the best ALPA supporter to rethink wanting to support an ALPA drive when all we hear is we at SkyWest have done NOTHING to improve the industry. Plus I am sure that there has NEVER been a time that an ALPA regional has looked at what we have for work rules and used it in their negotiations.

Besides, I do love how everyone is so friendly and thankful for rides while working for a fellow ALPA regional or major, and yet think all we are is a second rate pilot group that brings nothing to the industry.

HEY ALPA.... TFAYD

Nevets

I must not have made myself clear. Wages and work rules are not the only thing I'm talking about. In fact, it's very minor, which is why I only had one sentence about it. The fact of the matter is that pay and work rules have more to do with collective bargaining within the reality of a companies financial success.

My bigger point was everything unionized pilot groups have done for safety and security of the industry. What has the Skywest pilot group done to submit NPRM comments on lithium batteries, pilot fatigue, professionalism, ATP requirements, requirements of pilot certificates, etc? The fact that you point out that there was another pilot making the case for democratic unionizing further makes my case. It doesn't matter when your sapa president talks with the cal MEC or UAL MEC on issues because they know that it doesn't mean that much without a NMB recognized union with a president who can sign an MOU and putting on legally binding terms the agreement between parties. Which brings up another point. Can you produce your asap MOU? I've asked this many times and I've only gotten silence. The facf that you point out that your asap is run in conjunction with the faa, shows a lack of understanding of the true protections of the program, which is why Im curious to read the mou and who are the parties signatory to it. When I talk about asap, FOQA, and crewpass, I'm not saying that coat tail riders like Skywest dont take advantage of them, I'm saying that they were not involved in the development of the programs. Even the template used for the MOU itself was developed by ALPA. And hundreds of other things that you and I take for granted are were also developed with the help of ALPA such as tcas, standard T, approach light systems, etc. Or things that ALPA pushed to have required such as stronger crash axes, wx radar, nonpunitive use of cvr recordings, etc.

When was the last time, Skywest as a pilot group, participated in any ARC, commission, court filling, administrative appeal of a government agency, testified before congress, lobbied, were members of an NTSB investigation, etc, etc, etc.

Until Skywest pilots can speak with one voice, with the strength of a NMB recognized union, put a legally binding signature to paper, in representing their interest through legally required/standardized union elections, in my mind they will continue to ride the coat tails that have made this industry better and safer for everyone.

goaround2000

I'll spell it out for you:

Do you have a union?

No

Do you have a contract?

No

Do you have an MOU providing protections from punitive action?

No

For it to be an effective ASAP, you have to have GUARANTEED protections not just from certificate action, but from punitive action. As I mentioned before I've met two very nice people fired from skywest for something that elsewhere would have been protected by both the union, and the contract under ASAP.

goaround2000

[MOD EDIT: delete quote]


No one is attacking you personally. I am asking what have your group done to advance the industry? You're not in the industry, your group is riding on the coattails of everything the unionized groups have accomplished.

I really don't care whether you join ALPA or not, but rather that you unionize and stop taking it up the tail pipe with 1% raises for mainline size aircraft. Start lobbying along side with us to fix fatigue, airport access, pay, and safety; instead of kicking back and enjoying the view. If management actually honors their promise to give you what we negotiate, well then you got the benefits of our union without paying for it.

[MOD EDIT: delete flamebait]

TheDashRocks

I tried explaining the logic in these first two sentences to those (including SKWers) who excoriated Mesa pilots for causing the Aloha collapse.

What on earth did Ayn Rand help you with? I remain amazed at the number of people willing to base a political and economic philosophy on some of the worst fiction ever excreted.

So, when SKWers start bashing other pilot groups, such as referring to Mesa pilots as "bottom-feeders", are you the voice of maturity and benevolence?


I think you make too much of the pay difference. At DEN a SKW FO was eager to share how he made more money than I. We crunched numbers and the difference was about $170.00 a month. I told him that I felt that his smugness was not justified by barely enough money to cover my cable TV and internet bill.

"Above average employees?" At one of my bases, SKW folks served as gate agents and rampers. They used to tee-hee together about being really unkind to customers that were not going to make their connections due to weather. Once a superviser asked a lady to postpone her meal break in order to help the ticket counter with a rush of customers...she burst into tears.

You object to the invective words directed at SKW pilots. Some of this is due to your non-union status. I would not name-call because I think more flies are attracted with sugar. I do believe that it is a mistake for SKW pilots to remain non-union and that all pilots are a bit weaker for it. The pay and benefits that you are so proud of result from management having to match the pay and benefits achieved by unionized pilot groups at other companies. Do you believe that if your union divisions down the hall achieve gains, management will let its non-union children lag behind?

Some of the venom coming your way is the result of the demeanor and attitude of many of your peers. If a pilot was rude, chose not to return my cheery "Good Morning!", and avoided eye contact, odds were he was wearing the SKW epaulets of gold. I problably would have been grumpy too, pewter looks better.

SKW has done well at instilling loyalty and morale. When you look below the surface, I think you find that Mesa is not as bad as you think and SKW is not as good.

The Dash Whisperer