MESA & Johnny O
09-23-2006, 12:11 PM
#21
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,309
Originally Posted by stanrhintx
Ultimately, people will all act in their own best interests, and that includes people negotiating pilot contracts, CEOs, pilots, etc. For me, Mesa is a stepping stone, a means to an end. I'm more than happy to learn more, as long as it's based on reality.
There's a few major airline pilots that think all RJ pilots should be taken out and shot...that's obviously not practical. What is realistic is encouraging every entry-level pilot to steer clear of the worst of the worst (gojets, mesa, etc). That would force the bottom end to improve a bit or perish. This is actually not a bad thing for you...you might have to flight instruct a few more months to qualify for a better job, but in the long run you will be much happier.
Mesa pilots are having very real problems getting hired by majors, this is a fact that I have witnessed first hand. I know, I know, your uncle's brother's cousin was a mesa guy and he got hired at FEDEX, there's always exceptions...but you're not going to be one unless you know somebody. If you're new at mesa I'm sure your seniority is climbing for the stratosphere at a rate that would peg the VSI on the space shuttle. But if you want to sober up a little, take a look at the seniority list right below where jet captain upgrades are happening. Pick a name, and watch that name's progression over a six month period. You will probably note that he's not moving at all...captains are not leaving unless they turn 60, die, or drop out to do real estate. Even if you are the greatest, best connected major airline candidate there is, how are you going to get the PIC time if none of those captains leave? Are you -8 or 1900? In that case you can get the PIC. Otherwise...
I would strongly suggest applying to other regionals NOW. You will be glad you did in the long run.
Last edited by rickair7777; 09-23-2006 at 12:13 PM.
09-24-2006, 07:30 PM
#23
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 49
I'll chime in here, as several of you have asked why one would willingly work for a company such as Mesa, let alone someone like JO. I think it might be of value to explain my story, which may lend some insight as to why I chose Mesa. I'll start off by saying that, ultimately, my decision to go to Mesa was one of the worst decisions I have ever made.
Let me just give you an overview of my past situation. After being in the corporate world for many years, as well as being in business for myself, I decided to abandon that career in hopes of becoming a professional pilot (not necessarily an "airline pilot", just a pilot who enjoys their job, and life...flying whatever). At the time, I was 30 years old, and knew absolutely NOTHING about flying, nor the industry (I'm not joking when I say that I didn't know what an aileron was, and thought a United Express pilot was employed by United!).
I knew several pilots in my neighborhood at the time (2 American, 1 United, and 1 Southwest) and was confident that they could best guide me on this career-change. Interested in soliciting their advice, I asked them collectively what one in my situation should do in hopes of launching a career as a pilot. Each and every one of them summed it up by saying "whatever you do, get done with your training, build time, and get on a seniority list ASAP to get PIC time". It didn't take long for me to understand the significance of PIC time (speaking of which, I had never even heard of "PIC" before...again, shows you how clueless I was).
Anyhow, fast forward, I've accelerated my training at a local FBO, was offered a job as a CFI, and was instructing for upwards of a year...full-time. My logbook showed a grand total of 319 hours dual given, and I needed 87 more hours of multi-time to meet the bare minumim that most regionals were requiring at the time...100 hours. Single-engine time was not necessarily the problem, as I knew that would continue to eventually grow, but my flight school required 85 hours of multi-time just to teach in the Seminole. In short, I had my MEI, but couldn't use it! I, along with my fellow instructors, were "pimping" and competing for multi-time everywhere, but were all frustrated by the lack of availability. Mind you, this was back in late 2001/2002, so to say that competition was fierce for time-building opportunities, and jobs, is an understatement.
Given what seemed like a stagnation point, one my neighbors came over to talk to me about a program at Mesa that offered one an interview if they succesfully completed a training program. I recall vividly debating him on pursuing this route as I mentioned that my research showed Mesa to be a pretty rotten place to work. As well, I told him that this sounded like the pay-for-training thing that everyone says to avoid. His thoughts were that this was more like "pay-for-interview", and that he had a friend that had to pay for his MBA in order to get promoted where he worked...so same thing. "Okay, whatever", I thought, "sounds like a twisted analogy, but I'll bite" (no need to say how stupid I was there). Over and over, he told me how important getting a seniority number was, and that Mesa tended to upgrade quickly...and, of course, how important PIC time was (especially, in his views, to a "late bloomer", such as myself) . He put me in touch with a guy that flew with him as an FO that went through this "PACE" program several years back, flew the 1900, and got on with American.
So, I called the guy, got the skinny, and was still not sold. I told my neighbor that I was actually really happy instructing (I found the job itself very rewarding, albeit the pay) and would just do the typical route of getting a freight gig, building time, and then apply to SkyWest (my first choice, for a number of reasons). He asked, again, how I would get the multi-time I needed, and I replied "I don't know, but it'll work out". He didn't seem to like that answer, and gave me that questioning look like "you don't know what you're doing!".
A few weeks later, and I was talking to 3 of the pilots mentioned above at one of our neighborhood BBQ's. The American pilot who talked to me initially mentioned this Mesa PACE program to the two others, and explained to them what the deal was. Unanimously, they agreed with him that someone in my situation should pursue this (for the same reasons he gave me initially...getting a seniority number, quick upgrade, PIC, blah, blah, blah). I guess at that point I felt that I was not in a position to be challenging their judgements, especially considering how "behind the curve" I had been on what I needed to do to get this career off the ground. Obviously, I had aspirations to get to where they were, and felt they probably knew better than I on how to get there.
I remember looking at my computer as I was filling out that appication, and questioning myself...over and over. Asking questions like "you've given up everything (prior career) in hopes of being happy doing what you're doing...why are you going somewhere that people don't seem to be happy?". Other questions came to mind as well, but it seemed like each time they did, my neighbor's face would pop up with that questioning look saying "gotta get that PIC time", or "I know better than you do what you're doing".
A date that lives in infamy...March 2003, and I (somewhat reluctantly) fired that application off...
So, to spare you with more details, I got through the PACE program, and got hired on with Mesa in 2004. My story may at least provide some rationale as to why some people do things that others find completely senseless. If I would have found a site such as this, or talked to regional pilots themselves, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have done things differently.
Many that read this will say that I got what I deserved for not doing better research. And you're absolutely right. I looked at the company itself, and was impressed with it's profitabilty, growth and the fact that Mesa had continued to hire when others weren't. But why I never dug up and read the specifics of the contract is beyond me. I had no idea what "junior assigning" meant, or "segment time", or stuff like that. But I know I would have balked at not getting paid for time you flew (or sat) as well as not getting paid for some cancellations, etc. I shudder to think just how little I knew about this industry, and how mis-informed/aka CLUELESS I was on just about everything applicable to my life ahead as a pilot.
I know that I would be much happier at a place like SkyWest for the same reasons I initially wanted to go there. However, after being at Mesa for 2+ years, and being in my late 30's, I really don't feel that starting over at another regional would be in my best interest. Ultimately, I could be wrong....especially considering that a newhire at SkyWest (or Shuttle, as well as others) may upgrade sooner than I will here. Certainly, they'll be leading a MUCH better life once they do. But for those saying "why do people stay at Mesa?"....it's a bit more complicated than you may think.
To sum it up, I feel that life is all about making decisions based on the information available at the time...and then figuring out later whether or not that was the right decision. If it's not, you learn from your mistake, and try to avoid making the same mistake again. That's exactly what I've done with my decision to come to Mesa. I've realized it was a mistake, am trying to make the best of it (or possibly make a change to rectify it), and learn from it ultimately.
...so there you have it.
Let me just give you an overview of my past situation. After being in the corporate world for many years, as well as being in business for myself, I decided to abandon that career in hopes of becoming a professional pilot (not necessarily an "airline pilot", just a pilot who enjoys their job, and life...flying whatever). At the time, I was 30 years old, and knew absolutely NOTHING about flying, nor the industry (I'm not joking when I say that I didn't know what an aileron was, and thought a United Express pilot was employed by United!).
I knew several pilots in my neighborhood at the time (2 American, 1 United, and 1 Southwest) and was confident that they could best guide me on this career-change. Interested in soliciting their advice, I asked them collectively what one in my situation should do in hopes of launching a career as a pilot. Each and every one of them summed it up by saying "whatever you do, get done with your training, build time, and get on a seniority list ASAP to get PIC time". It didn't take long for me to understand the significance of PIC time (speaking of which, I had never even heard of "PIC" before...again, shows you how clueless I was).
Anyhow, fast forward, I've accelerated my training at a local FBO, was offered a job as a CFI, and was instructing for upwards of a year...full-time. My logbook showed a grand total of 319 hours dual given, and I needed 87 more hours of multi-time to meet the bare minumim that most regionals were requiring at the time...100 hours. Single-engine time was not necessarily the problem, as I knew that would continue to eventually grow, but my flight school required 85 hours of multi-time just to teach in the Seminole. In short, I had my MEI, but couldn't use it! I, along with my fellow instructors, were "pimping" and competing for multi-time everywhere, but were all frustrated by the lack of availability. Mind you, this was back in late 2001/2002, so to say that competition was fierce for time-building opportunities, and jobs, is an understatement.
Given what seemed like a stagnation point, one my neighbors came over to talk to me about a program at Mesa that offered one an interview if they succesfully completed a training program. I recall vividly debating him on pursuing this route as I mentioned that my research showed Mesa to be a pretty rotten place to work. As well, I told him that this sounded like the pay-for-training thing that everyone says to avoid. His thoughts were that this was more like "pay-for-interview", and that he had a friend that had to pay for his MBA in order to get promoted where he worked...so same thing. "Okay, whatever", I thought, "sounds like a twisted analogy, but I'll bite" (no need to say how stupid I was there). Over and over, he told me how important getting a seniority number was, and that Mesa tended to upgrade quickly...and, of course, how important PIC time was (especially, in his views, to a "late bloomer", such as myself) . He put me in touch with a guy that flew with him as an FO that went through this "PACE" program several years back, flew the 1900, and got on with American.
So, I called the guy, got the skinny, and was still not sold. I told my neighbor that I was actually really happy instructing (I found the job itself very rewarding, albeit the pay) and would just do the typical route of getting a freight gig, building time, and then apply to SkyWest (my first choice, for a number of reasons). He asked, again, how I would get the multi-time I needed, and I replied "I don't know, but it'll work out". He didn't seem to like that answer, and gave me that questioning look like "you don't know what you're doing!".
A few weeks later, and I was talking to 3 of the pilots mentioned above at one of our neighborhood BBQ's. The American pilot who talked to me initially mentioned this Mesa PACE program to the two others, and explained to them what the deal was. Unanimously, they agreed with him that someone in my situation should pursue this (for the same reasons he gave me initially...getting a seniority number, quick upgrade, PIC, blah, blah, blah). I guess at that point I felt that I was not in a position to be challenging their judgements, especially considering how "behind the curve" I had been on what I needed to do to get this career off the ground. Obviously, I had aspirations to get to where they were, and felt they probably knew better than I on how to get there.
I remember looking at my computer as I was filling out that appication, and questioning myself...over and over. Asking questions like "you've given up everything (prior career) in hopes of being happy doing what you're doing...why are you going somewhere that people don't seem to be happy?". Other questions came to mind as well, but it seemed like each time they did, my neighbor's face would pop up with that questioning look saying "gotta get that PIC time", or "I know better than you do what you're doing".
A date that lives in infamy...March 2003, and I (somewhat reluctantly) fired that application off...
So, to spare you with more details, I got through the PACE program, and got hired on with Mesa in 2004. My story may at least provide some rationale as to why some people do things that others find completely senseless. If I would have found a site such as this, or talked to regional pilots themselves, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have done things differently.
Many that read this will say that I got what I deserved for not doing better research. And you're absolutely right. I looked at the company itself, and was impressed with it's profitabilty, growth and the fact that Mesa had continued to hire when others weren't. But why I never dug up and read the specifics of the contract is beyond me. I had no idea what "junior assigning" meant, or "segment time", or stuff like that. But I know I would have balked at not getting paid for time you flew (or sat) as well as not getting paid for some cancellations, etc. I shudder to think just how little I knew about this industry, and how mis-informed/aka CLUELESS I was on just about everything applicable to my life ahead as a pilot.
I know that I would be much happier at a place like SkyWest for the same reasons I initially wanted to go there. However, after being at Mesa for 2+ years, and being in my late 30's, I really don't feel that starting over at another regional would be in my best interest. Ultimately, I could be wrong....especially considering that a newhire at SkyWest (or Shuttle, as well as others) may upgrade sooner than I will here. Certainly, they'll be leading a MUCH better life once they do. But for those saying "why do people stay at Mesa?"....it's a bit more complicated than you may think.
To sum it up, I feel that life is all about making decisions based on the information available at the time...and then figuring out later whether or not that was the right decision. If it's not, you learn from your mistake, and try to avoid making the same mistake again. That's exactly what I've done with my decision to come to Mesa. I've realized it was a mistake, am trying to make the best of it (or possibly make a change to rectify it), and learn from it ultimately.
...so there you have it.
09-24-2006, 07:47 PM
#24
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,309
EFIS,
If you are interested in the western US, you will gain better relative seniority at SKW in three months than you will in three years in PHX. But the hiring spree won't last forever, so if you're gonna do it, do it now. My situation was very similar to yours in all respects (except MAPD), and I no longer lay awake at night worrying that I will be condemned to life at mesa...and it's a really nice feeling, let me tell you.
If you are interested in the western US, you will gain better relative seniority at SKW in three months than you will in three years in PHX. But the hiring spree won't last forever, so if you're gonna do it, do it now. My situation was very similar to yours in all respects (except MAPD), and I no longer lay awake at night worrying that I will be condemned to life at mesa...and it's a really nice feeling, let me tell you.
09-24-2006, 08:20 PM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 49
Trust me, I still consider leaving here...practically on a day-to-day basis on a typical trip. Many of my classmates jumped over to SkyWest after their first year, and couldn't be happier. Like me, it was a drive to get back out West (and obviously it's a much better company to work for than Mesa). I guess a few months ago I just considered that a lateral move (even though it would be a vertical move in terms of QOL, etc) maybe wasn't the best thing. I continue to struggle with that. And you're totally right about PHX...that's a death trap.
rickair, how long were you at Mesa before you decided to take the leap?
rickair, how long were you at Mesa before you decided to take the leap?
09-24-2006, 09:19 PM
#27
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,309
Originally Posted by EFIS COMP MON
Trust me, I still consider leaving here...practically on a day-to-day basis on a typical trip. Many of my classmates jumped over to SkyWest after their first year, and couldn't be happier. Like me, it was a drive to get back out West (and obviously it's a much better company to work for than Mesa). I guess a few months ago I just considered that a lateral move (even though it would be a vertical move in terms of QOL, etc) maybe wasn't the best thing. I continue to struggle with that. And you're totally right about PHX...that's a death trap.
rickair, how long were you at Mesa before you decided to take the leap?
rickair, how long were you at Mesa before you decided to take the leap?
Bout the same as you. If you're gonna do it, do it fast, you could have several hundred numbers below you in 6 months.
The other thing about SKW is one year seat lock, with NO lock for FO's who want to upgrade...if you're willing to upgrade over to the Brasilia, it's a year and change...and it will not be on the east coast!
Last edited by rickair7777; 09-24-2006 at 09:21 PM.
09-24-2006, 11:12 PM
#28
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
Originally Posted by EFIS COMP MON
I'll chime in here, as several of you have asked why one would willingly work for a company such as Mesa, let alone someone like JO. I think it might be of value to explain my story, which may lend some insight as to why I chose Mesa. I'll start off by saying that, ultimately, my decision to go to Mesa was one of the worst decisions I have ever made. .............................
................To sum it up, I feel that life is all about making decisions based on the information available at the time...and then figuring out later whether or not that was the right decision. If it's not, you learn from your mistake, and try to avoid making the same mistake again. That's exactly what I've done with my decision to come to Mesa. I've realized it was a mistake, am trying to make the best of it (or possibly make a change to rectify it), and learn from it ultimately.
...so there you have it.
................To sum it up, I feel that life is all about making decisions based on the information available at the time...and then figuring out later whether or not that was the right decision. If it's not, you learn from your mistake, and try to avoid making the same mistake again. That's exactly what I've done with my decision to come to Mesa. I've realized it was a mistake, am trying to make the best of it (or possibly make a change to rectify it), and learn from it ultimately.
...so there you have it.
Mesa airlines seems to be an experiment on just how low, we as pilots, are willing to go to fly commercial airplanes. I mean this as no slight to EFIS COMP MON or his colleges at Mesa, but...... this company is surly testing the limits of how little one is willing to be paid/abused/junior manned/pushed/etc,etc and still provide a professional product for the airlines they contract for.
I wish everyone one at Mesa the best. I guess everyone has to look out for him/herself because your collective powers (up to this point) have failed to provide even the most basic of protections most regional/larger airlines pilots expect. While most pilots have taken a step back in recent years on pay and work rules/benefits, this company is truly "testing the waters" as to how little professional aviators are willing to accept to wear the uniform. Shame on United, Delta, USAways for doing business with this dirt bag outfit. I hope it comes back to haunt them
09-25-2006, 09:57 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: FO
Posts: 226
My story comes along the same tracks as EFIS COMP MON. I got hired on with mesa in early 2004 on the ERJ and based in DCA then displaced to CLT without a complaint. I was in CLT on reserve for eight months before holding a crappy line with 10days off and 4 hour sits almost every day.
US Airways decided that the best move for them was to have the CRJ-9’s based in CLT and what do you know there their now. A long story on how it all worked out but a lot of senior pilots got screwed. First they sent all the CLT based pilots a notice of displacement, your choices IAD/MCO. Days later a system wide bid went out for a new base opening in IAH. Of course everyone knew what was happing, open IAH place the 9’s there for due time once the last ERJ is out of CLT will re-open the base screwing all the Jr. Capt’s and FO’s. Just saved us a lot of training $’s at the expense of 350+ pilots. Also all the poor IAH based crewmembers that were told that IAH would be open for 5+ years more like 11 months.
I myself chose MCO, but due to the shortage of ERJ pilots in IAD I was Jr. assigned TDY reserve, my global seniority was 1190 out of 2000 and some change. 18 other CA/FO’s shared my same fate in DEC 2005. After 5 months of b**** reserve I decide its time to leave, starting a new family and seeing them 3-5 days a month was unacceptable. Left in April to make that dreaded regional-to-regional jump and landed a job with X-jet and couldn’t be happier. My buddy who is still with mesa and TDYed in IAD just now got a class date for MCO, that’s almost a full year living in a hotel on reserve.
I would have to say I think a lot about leaving a company with 2 years vested with about 8-10 months out from upgrading. But mesa changed me as in my personality; I became very bitter and negative about every thing. My family noticed the changes and brought the sore subject up, I guess it was an awaking for me. After many talks with my parents and spouse my mind was made up to make the lateral move to another regional.
What it comes down to don’t put your family, health, and QOL on the bottom step for that convenient PIC turbine. I would much rather be at X-Jet for 8 years happy then Mesa for 5 years and truly depressed.
It’s never to late to change your path just another story to tell…
US Airways decided that the best move for them was to have the CRJ-9’s based in CLT and what do you know there their now. A long story on how it all worked out but a lot of senior pilots got screwed. First they sent all the CLT based pilots a notice of displacement, your choices IAD/MCO. Days later a system wide bid went out for a new base opening in IAH. Of course everyone knew what was happing, open IAH place the 9’s there for due time once the last ERJ is out of CLT will re-open the base screwing all the Jr. Capt’s and FO’s. Just saved us a lot of training $’s at the expense of 350+ pilots. Also all the poor IAH based crewmembers that were told that IAH would be open for 5+ years more like 11 months.
I myself chose MCO, but due to the shortage of ERJ pilots in IAD I was Jr. assigned TDY reserve, my global seniority was 1190 out of 2000 and some change. 18 other CA/FO’s shared my same fate in DEC 2005. After 5 months of b**** reserve I decide its time to leave, starting a new family and seeing them 3-5 days a month was unacceptable. Left in April to make that dreaded regional-to-regional jump and landed a job with X-jet and couldn’t be happier. My buddy who is still with mesa and TDYed in IAD just now got a class date for MCO, that’s almost a full year living in a hotel on reserve.
I would have to say I think a lot about leaving a company with 2 years vested with about 8-10 months out from upgrading. But mesa changed me as in my personality; I became very bitter and negative about every thing. My family noticed the changes and brought the sore subject up, I guess it was an awaking for me. After many talks with my parents and spouse my mind was made up to make the lateral move to another regional.
What it comes down to don’t put your family, health, and QOL on the bottom step for that convenient PIC turbine. I would much rather be at X-Jet for 8 years happy then Mesa for 5 years and truly depressed.
It’s never to late to change your path just another story to tell…
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