OK so if it is just hours..........500 or 1000 hours in a FO program should be OK then. It would probably cost less than getting all of your CFI tickets and it gives you more real world flying experience right?

 

My instructor is a retired airforce pilot with probably 15000 hours and instructs because he wants to not because he is waiting to get a magic number in his log book. We talk often about some of the CFIs that have less flight time and yes sometimes less experience than the students they are teaching.

 

We have to go over this again, don't we? The CFI learns decision making skills, planning, alternate planning, and situational awareness. He/she learns to be on their own, and they learn personal limits that they have to set for THEMSELVES.

No. It wouldn't be OK. A 121 environment where your and my family are flying as passengers is NOT the proper place for training. If a CA has to focus on taking care of everything because the FO has no idea what is going on then that completely defeats the purpose of a multi pilot crew and CRM. CRM is the foundation which todays safety standards are built off of. When I was a Flight Instructor I had plenty of my own pre flight planning to do. I had to ensure the WX would be good for whatever training we were doing. If I was taking my students in IMC I had to know what my alternates were. Where was I going if we couldn't get in? Where was I going if we encountered icing? Where was I going if we encountered a thunderstorm? How long could we hold if we couldn't get in? Could we hold at all? What would we do if we lost our radios? I learned to make my own decisions, and learned how to plan ahead. That way when I made it to the airlines, I knew that if I was ever not doing anything then I was already behind.

By the time an FO gets to an airline 121 environment he/she should have the ability to make their own decisions. Yes, you will always learn something, even as an experienced FO or CA, but one needs to learn the basics on their own. Gaining these qualities in a 121 environment is inappropriate and a hinderance to safety.

 

So 1500 hours of what you describe is going to magically make these pilots ready for 121 world?

Whether you support the 1500 hour rule or not, the fact is that a majority of people will get to that 1500 hour mark by mostly instructing - many by never setting foot in anything more complex than seminole or duchess. Complex, high performance and multi-engine planes are getting to be tougher and tougher to insure. Many will reach ATP minimums without experience in much bad weather, very little IMC, no flights into icing. Where I'm at now I would say that 90% of days with low overcast that would be good for things like practice approaches are not flyable either due to icing conditions (october - april) or T-storms in the summer. In fact, one place I did some training at did not allow ANY flights into IMC.

This is where better training at the airline level comes in. If you want to prevent Buffalo type crashes (at least that was the impetus for the new law), there needs to be better training in type and dealing with bad wx, crm, vastly more complex aircraft than a trainer, and other conditions that most people will not get much experience of during their time-building. 10 sim sessions may be enough to pass a checkride, but doesn't cut it when you're taking someone out of a 172 and throwing them out to the real world in a jet.

I want to clarify that my opinion is not meant to bash CFI's (I am one, and have learned so much from it), but I'm highlighting the importance of better training programs at the airline level. In a training class you are going to have people with many different backgrounds and experience levels (even if they all have 1500 hours in the logbook), and all of them have to be ready for whatever is going to be thrown at them in the real world once they're out of training.

 

Instructing will not prepare you for the 121 world. The 121 world is mostly politics.

Gaining significant experience; pushing a simple airplane past it's limits will prepare you to become a better pilot and a true aviator. The above should be a prerequisite to enter the 121 world. You are expected to be an aviator when you apply. I agree you many airlines need to improve their training from the current dog and pony show to something of real educational value. However one issue does not absolve the other and airline pilots need true-grit-experience as well as academic training.

 

I can't believe I read this whole thread....

Major obvious points:

You can be a great pilot with low time, and you can be an awful pilot with high time. As the old saying goes, are you a 1,500-hour pilot, or a 1-hour pilot 1,500 times? That said, as with anything, more experience is usually helpful. We see this all the time in many different scenarios. Also, just because it's theoretically possible to be a safe and competent low-time airline pilot, that doesn't mean it's the best way of doing things.

Sure, more experience might not always correlate to a safer pilot. As a CFI, I have my fair share of horror stories from flying with old high-time rich guys who were terrifying. However, as a general rule, more experience is better.

I feel sorry for the people who have jumped straight from the 172 training mill to the 121 world, without actually ever experiencing the world of aviation. My second CFI job was at a museum, teaching high-school volunteers in a fleet of vintage airplanes. It was also my first tailwheel experience. I'll tell you, I got into that Champ a commercial pilot and CFI who thought I knew how to fly anything, and I got out of it completely humbled. Hand-propping builds character.

Second point:
Supply and demand. We all complain about the lack of pay and working conditions. For that reason alone, I would support that all 121 crew-members should hold an ATP. Reduce the number of qualified applicants, and employers will be forced to do something other than drop their minimums in order to staff their flying. This is the reason our industry is frustrating. Is 20k/year flying a CRJ really all that better than 20k/year being a CFI and being home every night?

And to be perfectly honest, I see it as fixing a loophole that's been around for far too long. In order to fly as a required crew-member on a Transport-category airliner, you should hold the appropriate certificate. I'll give you a hint, it has "Transport" and "Airline" in the name.

 

teach some, tow some, haul jumpers a little, spend some quality learning time haulIng freight ALONE at night over the terrain solving your own problems (ice, wt/bal, fuel, alt's, etc) then maybe some charter (learning to deal w the public) then.........121

 

I can agree with a lot of you. However I do feel things should be taken into consideration like quality over quantity. For example me. 590tt 130 me 101 turbine 65 jet. Typed in Citation II/V Part 135 and I'm right seat in a G550 and Flight Safety International in the sim with an aviation degree 3.8GPA. I am not saying I should be able to jump into a CRJ right now. But if they make 1,500 rock solid, I believe certain experience should be able to lower that a bit.

 

That is quite the resume you have there SkyAsMyRoof.
Now how much of that time have you spent actually making the decisions and being in charge (responsible = last word)?
You are right - quality of flight time can be very important and you are gaining some important experience right now it sounds like; but you should also realize that there is a big difference between those seats.

USMCFLYR

 

Instrument-rated private pilot certificate? (I couldn't help it)