Originally Posted by NWA320pilot

1500 hours is not what is going to be required...... An Airline Transport Pilot license is what will be required.

Originally Posted by Duksrule

I wouldn't have a set time. It would be more of a practical training and testing issue.

Originally Posted by Duksrule

Funny that everyone is OK with a 250 hour pilot teaching people to fly airplanes from PVT to ATP all by themselves but just not riding in the right seat of a RJ under a CAs supervision.

Originally Posted by Duksrule

Understood but you have to have the hours. I would bet my next paycheck that there are guys out there with less hours that can pass the checkride to get the ATP. It is all about building up those hours to get to the checkride and whether said hours some how make you a better pilot or not.

Originally Posted by DirectTo

I laugh every time I read this. Stalls are something taught from day four or five...rehashed through every stage of training all the way through a type rating. There is no excuse for ignoring a shaker then overpowering a pusher. No amount of 'banner towing, or a bit of flight instructing' would prevent that.

For those who don't fly the -8, it's a learning scenario to see what they did in the sim. The -8 has very benign stall characteristics and easily recovers. Plenty of warning with the shaker and a good, quick pusher. It really does make you wonder what all was going on in that cockpit to cause the accident.

Originally Posted by NWA320pilot

Guys that are bashing the rule have no idea what they are talking about..... Hours in an aircraft directly equate into a more experienced pilot!

Originally Posted by Duksrule

I think all people who preach/demand the 1500hr ATP for a regional FO should put the number of hours they had at the time they were first hired to fly in their signature. I would bet that there are a lot that got hired with far less than 1500 hours and are now against the very conditions under which they got hired.

I won't put it in my signature, but just for you:
First CFI Job: 300TT
First 135 Job: 1400TT
Second 135 Job: 2200TT 400 MEL
Corporate: 5000TT 800 TPIC 2200 MEL
Regional: 5200TT 900 TPIC 2200MEL
The only non-PIC time was as a student pilot and 3000+ was single pilot.


135 mins are pretty close to 1500 hours so getting PIC 135 time is out for most, traffic jobs are few and far between now that they have cameras everywhere, banner jobs aren't that easy to get in most places and jumpers are the same way. So now you are back to being a CFI if you can find a school/job.

Oh, boo hoo! I can't find a job. Waaaaaaa!!!
Getting the first 1000 hours has always been tough. The only reason most people get a CFI is to prove they are a bit more than a bare bones Commercial AND because nobody in their right minds would let a dripping wet commercial into anything bigger than a 172 (except, that is for the regionals). Think about it, a nice normally aspirated 182 will cost over $70k, but a turbine on it and the cost triples. Would you want a 250 hour, zero UNSUPERVISED Hour guy taking the controls of YOUR quarter of a million dollar toy? It's kinda like letting a 16 year old drive a Lamborghini: not real smart.

Oh, and once you get that 1000 hours of ASEL, just try to find someone to let you fly a 400 series Cessna. At my second 135 gig, the owner of the company, mad that I was hired with only 480 MEL, took me out on my first flight to try to wash me out.

I do think that if the 1500 hour "law" is implemented and firm on the hours, you will see a new round of PFT programs at frieght companies and others. Simple fact is that people are going to pay to get to the 1500 hours if that is what the limit is.

Undoubtedly, there will be a few small, shady outfits that will let idiots pay to be seat warmers. But most of the companies that have been in business for years don't do it.

Not everyone wants to / needs to / or can be a CFI so the people that think the only way to be a "real" pilot is to be a CFI need to come to terms with reality and move on. Becoming a pilot is a second career for many and frankly they don't have the time to work 2-3 years as a CFI. Regional pay is bad enough without prolonging the pain 2-3 more years. Right or wrong it is what it is.

No, not everyone needs to be a CFI. But everyone should have several hundred hours actually signing for an aircraft before setting foot in an airliner.

This isn't my first career. If 2-3 years is too long for wait and gain experience, then go back to what you were doing or something else, just don't become a pilot.

Good thing the FAA and congress wasn't around back in the day. Orvil and Wilber would have had to have 1500 hours before heading down to kitty hawk, then where would we all be.

Well, as stupid as your statement is, I will still answer it. Orville and Wilbur were flying an aircraft that weighed a couple hundred pounds, at a speed of forty miles per hour, and either solo or with one passenger. Not quite the same as a 25 Ton aircraft flying 400 knots

(Oh, and if your are going to reference the Wrights, have the courtesy to spell their names correctly.)

Originally Posted by Duksrule

For the guys who got hired with low time and suddenly had the epiphany that "wow I don't know as much as I thought and I am not safe" I ask DID YOU QUIT or did you continue to work and learn?

It might have been noble for them to fall on their swords, but if you won't even put in 2-3 years, why should they go back to square one. The folks that had the epiphany, probably realize just how lucky they were.

Now that they have seen the light they want it to be harder for everyone below them. It makes them sound like primadonnas that forgot where they came from and what it was like to grow. Now that they are in, screw the rest of the guys trying to make it.

Maybe, just maybe, they are just a little nervous about the day they get off high mins and get to fly with a just-off-IOE FO. Maybe they realize how overwhelmed they were, and they don't want others to be so far behind the aircraft.


It would be like an officer saying now that I got my commision with just a BS degree, I want to fight for all that come after me to have to have a MS degree because I didn't feel I was educated enough before going to OCS. (I know over simplified but you get the point)

Interesting point. Personally, as an enlisted-man I always wondered why a butter bar with a communications degree was put in charge of a Senior Chief with 15 years of service. But I digress.

Also the examples you talk about in this thread go both ways. Captains correct FOs and FOs catch mistakes that the CA make. That is all part of being a team and working together. Many people talk about low time guys like they are sitting in the right seat in their booster chair just pushing buttons and licking the window. I am all about if EITHER pilot is doing something in the cockpit that is so bad that it puts the A/C or passengers at risk then steps need to be taken and have them fired.

Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. You might be the one making a significant error (like setting wrong MDA in the preselect) that gets caught by an over zealous coworker who wants to see Your head on a platter.

It is just that simple. But if it is just the learning curve of being a new FO well then I do feel that part of the CAs job is to mentor junior pilots.

Yes, Mentor. I need to teach the subtleties of the aircraft (autopilot gotchas, engine quirks, systems gotchas), quirks of ATC and airspace, and dispatch "issues" (common errors and why in the world they file a Saab for 15,000 on a 28 minute flight). My job is NOT to teach holds; procedure turns; the relationship between airspeed, bank angle, and rate of turn.


As a MC aviator did you ever mentor your JOs? Or did you say "screw you, you are a low time bad pilot and it isn't my job to teach you"? My guess is that you held training whether it was your "job" or not.

My only point is that 1500 isn't a magic number.

1500 isn't a magic number. But neither is 250 for a commercial or 40 for a private. 1500 is total time minimum mandated for an ATP. And that 1500 hours cannot just be 12,000 touch and goes, there are other specific experience milestones that must be met.


It has been proven with statistics that mishaps involving pilot error happen more with an over 1500 hour pilot in the cockpit.

So, let's eliminate all over 1500 hour pilots. That'll clearly be safer.

While being a CFI may give you some insight and experience, sitting in the right seat not flying the A/C for 1500 hours doesn't make you a super pilot.

Yep, I never flew when I was instructing. Just like I never fly now that I have an autopilot or when I am the Pilot Monitoring. All I do is sit and look at the pretty clouds.

Or how about the CFIs that are in FL or someplace that they really never see weather, (that IS a valid point, hopefully they will get some 135 time too) fly nothing but new airplanes (New? Are you serious?) etc.... and how much planning/decision making is involved in taking a new airplane that is full of gas out for 1.2 in the practice area doing turns with a student?

More than going for a $100 hamburger.

Originally Posted by Duksrule

Understood but you have to have the hours. I would bet my next paycheck that there are guys out there with less hours that can pass the checkride to get the ATP. It is all about building up those hours to get to the checkride and whether said hours some how make you a better pilot or not.

Originally Posted by NWA320pilot

Guys that are bashing the rule have no idea what they are talking about..... Hours in an aircraft directly equate into a more experienced pilot! A 250 hour pilot just barely has the ink wet on his license and has no business flying families around that depend upon them for their well being. Granted having a training program that would weed out weak pilots and give practical instruction in high performance jet aircraft, human factors training, CRM, real weather/icing, would be great but reality is what it is.

If the FAA required this type of training how to you suppose the average guy would obtain/afford the training?