Calling all Captains to support 1500 hours
06-29-2011 | 09:58 AM
#61
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From: Reclined
Maybe when you have both, (time & and ATP) you'll understand how out of line you really were with this whole posting.
06-29-2011 | 10:04 AM
#62
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From: Reclined
More like management keeping pay low with increased supply, and relying on those who do have to have an ATP to watch the puppy mill kid in the right seat long enough that he or she hopefully will learn to make good decisions...
06-29-2011 | 10:08 AM
#63
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I believe 1500 hours ATP would be a good start but it does not look like that will happen in the US. Politicians are too eager to please airline CEOs, the ATA and flight schools like Embry Riddle, UND etc are loobying too hard for this rule to come out intact. It's supposed to be issued by the FAA by August this year but I am not counting on it.
Anyway, regionals right now are hiring pilots with less than 500 sometimes less than 400 hours. So this being the case, what needs to happen is if regionals are going to be the beginning jobs for 22 year old new pilots, regional airline training standards and curiculum needs to be expanded considerably. 8 sim sessions and a 3 week ground school course is not enough for 250 hour new pilots to be ready for the real 121 flying. A 250 hour may look good in the simulator but he/she is way behind the curve when the real jet flying starts in actual IMC or more especially in VMC, ironically. I have seen this personally both in the 121 flying and 135 flying. Talk to most LCAs at regionals and they will tell you the same.
That's why at most respected corporate jet operators, they will not even touch you as an SIC unless you have at least 2000 hours. Most come with considerably more like 3000 to 5000 hours unless they know someone there.
The weeding out process needs to be refined like the Europeans and 250 hour pilots needs to be given many more sim sessions then the 8 currently being given at most regionals. Plus their IOE needs to be longer, like 6 months or longer with an experienced LCA. This is how it's done in Europe. For instance, cadets get at least 60 or more sim sessions by the time they are deemed ready plus they fly with experienced Captains for at least a year or more.
Some people mentioned military pilots getting to fly tactical fighters with less than 250 hours. People, you are forgetting the fact that by the time an F 18 or an F16, F15 pilot actually sits inside the cockpit, they have alread had in excess of 60 hours of simulator training time. Plus their training is closely monitored for another couple of years. Even with this, we lose pilots every year through accidents. I have personally lost more friends than I care to remember thru accidents over the years I was in the service.
Anyway, regionals right now are hiring pilots with less than 500 sometimes less than 400 hours. So this being the case, what needs to happen is if regionals are going to be the beginning jobs for 22 year old new pilots, regional airline training standards and curiculum needs to be expanded considerably. 8 sim sessions and a 3 week ground school course is not enough for 250 hour new pilots to be ready for the real 121 flying. A 250 hour may look good in the simulator but he/she is way behind the curve when the real jet flying starts in actual IMC or more especially in VMC, ironically. I have seen this personally both in the 121 flying and 135 flying. Talk to most LCAs at regionals and they will tell you the same.
That's why at most respected corporate jet operators, they will not even touch you as an SIC unless you have at least 2000 hours. Most come with considerably more like 3000 to 5000 hours unless they know someone there.
The weeding out process needs to be refined like the Europeans and 250 hour pilots needs to be given many more sim sessions then the 8 currently being given at most regionals. Plus their IOE needs to be longer, like 6 months or longer with an experienced LCA. This is how it's done in Europe. For instance, cadets get at least 60 or more sim sessions by the time they are deemed ready plus they fly with experienced Captains for at least a year or more.
Some people mentioned military pilots getting to fly tactical fighters with less than 250 hours. People, you are forgetting the fact that by the time an F 18 or an F16, F15 pilot actually sits inside the cockpit, they have alread had in excess of 60 hours of simulator training time. Plus their training is closely monitored for another couple of years. Even with this, we lose pilots every year through accidents. I have personally lost more friends than I care to remember thru accidents over the years I was in the service.
It seems like everyone bases their arguments on their own unique set of facts which may or may not represent the current situation. The main catalyst for the debate involved a pilot error crash involing two pilots with over 2000+hrs, at least one of which had an atp. They seem like they are getting incorrectly labeled as low time pilots without atps.
06-29-2011 | 10:11 AM
#64
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From: Reclined
Go look at how many hours each had PRIOR to starting 121 airline service.
Then, look at the "airline" the CA "learned" 121 ops at... you wonder why they couldn't fly? Neither had any real experience prior to the airlines.
06-29-2011 | 10:13 AM
#65
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Joined: Mar 2008
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From: FAA 'Flight Check'
The increased training for 250 hours first officers sounds like a good idea, i think the costs associated with the extra sim sessions are why it doesn't happen. I dont think the airlines are hiring a lot or have hired a lot of 250 hour pilots recently. They are probably a much greater exception than the norm.
It seems like everyone bases their arguments on their own unique set of facts which may or may not represent the current situation. The main catalyst for the debate involved a pilot error crash involing two pilots with over 2000+hrs, at least one of which had an atp. They seem like they are getting incorrectly labeled as low time pilots without atps.
It seems like everyone bases their arguments on their own unique set of facts which may or may not represent the current situation. The main catalyst for the debate involved a pilot error crash involing two pilots with over 2000+hrs, at least one of which had an atp. They seem like they are getting incorrectly labeled as low time pilots without atps.
USMCFLYR
06-29-2011 | 10:50 AM
#67
Roll’n Thunder
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 5,151
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From: Pilot
Boneheaded mistakes can be made by anyone. Out of curiosity, since we are parsing the Colgan crash pilots, how many hours did the guys of the LEX crash have at the time it happened? How many hours were they hired with? I honestly don't know, but it didn't prevent them from making what most would consider to be a pretty rookie mistake in a similar vein as the Colgan crash.
06-29-2011 | 11:06 AM
#68
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Why is 1500 hours such an insurmountable obstacle? I bagged 500 hours in one year instructing PART TIME.
I remember a time when the regionals wouldn't touch anyone with less than 3000TT, and that was before the advent of the evil RJ. Back when ASA only operated EMB-120's and ATRs.
I remember a time when the regionals wouldn't touch anyone with less than 3000TT, and that was before the advent of the evil RJ. Back when ASA only operated EMB-120's and ATRs.
06-29-2011 | 11:21 AM
#69
Day puke
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Out.
Why is 1500 hours such an insurmountable obstacle? I bagged 500 hours in one year instructing PART TIME.
I remember a time when the regionals wouldn't touch anyone with less than 3000TT, and that was before the advent of the evil RJ. Back when ASA only operated EMB-120's and ATRs.
I remember a time when the regionals wouldn't touch anyone with less than 3000TT, and that was before the advent of the evil RJ. Back when ASA only operated EMB-120's and ATRs.
06-29-2011 | 11:53 AM
#70
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Originally Posted by Grumble
Why is 1500 hours such an insurmountable obstacle? I bagged 500 hours in one year instructing PART TIME.
I remember a time when the regionals wouldn't touch anyone with less than 3000TT, and that was before the advent of the evil RJ. Back when ASA only operated EMB-120's and ATRs.
Because that means I have to spend two whole years out of a forty year career flying around is a tiny, hot, dirty, old airplane teaching losers to get $100 hamburgers. Heck, I already am going to spend three years in a RJ (I expect to upgrade in about 20 months, then get my 1000 TPIC), before I go to Super Fantastic Mainline. Oh, and when I get there, I'm going right into the 777, forget the Super 80's.... they are just so 1980's."
Working now amongst my peers(blue collar&white collar) involves 50-60+ hours works weeks instead the old 40 hour work weeks. 500 hours a year instructing would require not working a full work week somewhere else. Try working 65 hours a week and figuring out a way to build time instructing part-time. One of the guys I work with has a dad who just retired with a nice pension after living a blue collar life working a 40 hour schedule. Now his kid is working 60 hours per week for about the same money, less pension, and lives in a condo. His dad doesn't come to the yard to bust our balls about how badass he is and how lazy we are.
Why is 1500 hours such an insurmountable obstacle? I bagged 500 hours in one year instructing PART TIME.
I remember a time when the regionals wouldn't touch anyone with less than 3000TT, and that was before the advent of the evil RJ. Back when ASA only operated EMB-120's and ATRs.
Because that means I have to spend two whole years out of a forty year career flying around is a tiny, hot, dirty, old airplane teaching losers to get $100 hamburgers. Heck, I already am going to spend three years in a RJ (I expect to upgrade in about 20 months, then get my 1000 TPIC), before I go to Super Fantastic Mainline. Oh, and when I get there, I'm going right into the 777, forget the Super 80's.... they are just so 1980's."
Working now amongst my peers(blue collar&white collar) involves 50-60+ hours works weeks instead the old 40 hour work weeks. 500 hours a year instructing would require not working a full work week somewhere else. Try working 65 hours a week and figuring out a way to build time instructing part-time. One of the guys I work with has a dad who just retired with a nice pension after living a blue collar life working a 40 hour schedule. Now his kid is working 60 hours per week for about the same money, less pension, and lives in a condo. His dad doesn't come to the yard to bust our balls about how badass he is and how lazy we are.
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