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Originally Posted by yamahas3
(Post 1120884)
Sometimes its better to give up 5% than to lose 100%.
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Look, the thing is, lots of people are acting irrational. They act like this is a job they can just throw away and someone else will want them. Heres reality: Even if things suck, everyone working at Pinnacle is very fortunate to be there and nobody else is going to be knocking on your door if you go to the unemployment line begging you to fly their jet for them for anywhere near as good as you have it at 9E.
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Originally Posted by yamahas3
(Post 1120954)
Look, the thing is, lots of people are acting irrational. They act like this is a job they can just throw away and someone else will want them. Heres reality: Even if things suck, everyone working at Pinnacle is very fortunate to be there and nobody else is going to be knocking on your door if you go to the unemployment line begging you to fly their jet for them for anywhere near as good as you have it at 9E.
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Originally Posted by gonyon
(Post 1120952)
Vote no. I would rather put the company out of business and lose my job. I'm so sick of this crap. this war will only be won when people are brave enough to become a casualty. and to be a casualty is a real possibility.
Spoken like someone who has never really had to do this before. Trust me, when you get the letter from the attorneys advising you that you no longer have COBRA because the company liquidated in bankruptcy makes it darn tough to look your wife and your kids in the eye and wonder where your health care is going to come from. Or when you have to figure out how to pay your bills when you have to start over at a new company. I've voted against paycuts that management was claiming would save the company before, only to have it liquidate months later. Trust me it isn't a walk in the park as some would like to think it is. As I have said before. I understand and respect why some vote no. I also understand why some are not interested in the possibility of going through the hell of a bankruptcy and possible liquidation. It is a tough decision either way. To demean anyone as "gutless" or a "coward" for voting yes is as ridiculous as criticizing those who vote no when you consider the implications of this decision. |
Originally Posted by Imapilot2
(Post 1120895)
the root problem for all regional pilots, the uninformed voter
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Originally Posted by yamahas3
(Post 1120954)
Look, the thing is, lots of people are acting irrational. They act like this is a job they can just throw away and someone else will want them. Heres reality: Even if things suck, everyone working at Pinnacle is very fortunate to be there and nobody else is going to be knocking on your door if you go to the unemployment line begging you to fly their jet for them for anywhere near as good as you have it at 9E.
Please someone tell me what we are trying to save here? Unlike United and American there are no pensions, unlike United and American most of us are not here for a life long career and trying to save what is (or was in these two examples) a great company. We are just trying to save our own jobs, some of the worst in the industry? Jobs that the majority of us are trying to leave as quickly as possible? And ultimately we are going to probably get furloughed anyway and end up at the next regional that will only pay us less due to the downward pressure our 5% pay cut has exerted on the industry? No thanks. |
Originally Posted by IBPilot
(Post 1120915)
the lifers will stfd faster than you whiners and upgrade chasers
The sad part is,if we stand up and vote no and Pinnacle shut the door, the rest of the regionals will be waiting for the flying. Most guys won't care where the new flying came from while 3,000 pilots are looking for a new job. |
Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1120964)
Spoken like someone who has never really had to do this before. Trust me, when you get the letter from the attorneys advising you that you no longer have COBRA because the company liquidated in bankruptcy makes it darn tough to look your wife and your kids in the eye and wonder where your health care is going to come from. Or when you have to figure out how to pay your bills when you have to start over at a new company. I've voted against paycuts that management was claiming would save the company before, only to have it liquidate months later. Trust me it isn't a walk in the park as some would like to think it is.
As I have said before. I understand and respect why some vote no. I also understand why some are not interested in the possibility of going through the hell of a bankruptcy and possible liquidation. It is a tough decision either way. To demean anyone as "gutless" or a "coward" for voting yes is as ridiculous as criticizing those who vote no when you consider the implications of this decision. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1121005)
Pinnacle isn't liquidating anytime soon, even with the bankruptcy this year. Not all our flying is at loss. It's the fear-grenade-tossing employees like you who scare people into voting yes to wage concessions.
Obviously you have never worked at a company that has gone through something like this or you wouldn't make such an asenine statement. If you don't think liquidation is a possibility in bankruptcy, particulary for a company that owns very few of its own aircraft, then you are very naive. DIP financing is a challenge for carriers that have plenty of assets to use as collateral. For regional carriers like Pinnacle its even more of a challenge because the company's aircraft are largely owned by Delta. Bankruptcy is a very different process with the new laws, and creditors have more power than they used to. |
Originally Posted by yamahas3
(Post 1120954)
Look, the thing is, lots of people are acting irrational. They act like this is a job they can just throw away and someone else will want them. Heres reality: Even if things suck, everyone working at Pinnacle is very fortunate to be there and nobody else is going to be knocking on your door if you go to the unemployment line begging you to fly their jet for them for anywhere near as good as you have it at 9E.
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Originally Posted by jayray2
(Post 1120991)
I can't agree with this, for a lot of people this is a throw away job. It is nothing more than getting 121 time so you can put it on your resume and leave as soon as possible. Pinnacle is very fortunate that we choose to work for them at the ridiculous salary they pay us, not the other way around. It all depends on your perspective I guess. I have no doubt that the majority of pilots at Pinnacle could have a new flying job within 4 months. I realize all pay longevity would be lost but lets put things in proper perspective here, Pinnacle is not a good company, no one should feel fortunate to be working for Pinnacle. I understand in this market maybe some people might feel lucky to be steadily employed but are there people here that really feel fortunate to be employed by Pinnacle?
Please someone tell me what we are trying to save here? Unlike United and American there are no pensions, unlike United and American most of us are not here for a life long career and trying to save what is (or was in these two examples) a great company. We are just trying to save our own jobs, some of the worst in the industry? Jobs that the majority of us are trying to leave as quickly as possible? And ultimately we are going to probably get furloughed anyway and end up at the next regional that will only pay us less due to the downward pressure our 5% pay cut has exerted on the industry? No thanks. |
Originally Posted by yamahas3
(Post 1120954)
Heres reality: Even if things suck, everyone working at Pinnacle is very fortunate to be there and nobody else is going to be knocking on your door if you go to the unemployment line begging you to fly their jet for them for anywhere near as good as you have it at 9E.
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The REAL question anyway is whether you really think your 5% wage concessions affect avoiding bankruptcy or not. I don't believe it will. I think we are headed there sooner or later. It's kind of business as usual for airlines.
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Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1121014)
Shy this statement shows how ignorant you really are. If you call pointing out the negative aspects of a bankrupcy fear mongering then you really don't have any understanding of what is going on here.
Obviously you have never worked at a company that has gone through something like this or you wouldn't make such an asenine statement. I have been through this, and as a result of the "education" of Comair going through BK, voting for cuts, and still shrinking, I know exactly how I would vote given this situation. You can spell it with two letters and one of them is N. |
Question: how many airlines have been in Chapter 11/13 over the last decade?
Second question: how many of those have been non-WO regional airlines that provide contract fee-for-departure lift? Third question: how many have ceased operations and liquidated via Chapter 7? FUD... |
Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1120964)
Spoken like someone who has never really had to do this before. Trust me, when you get the letter from the attorneys advising you that you no longer have COBRA because the company liquidated in bankruptcy makes it darn tough to look your wife and your kids in the eye and wonder where your health care is going to come from. Or when you have to figure out how to pay your bills when you have to start over at a new company. I've voted against paycuts that management was claiming would save the company before, only to have it liquidate months later. Trust me it isn't a walk in the park as some would like to think it is.
As I have said before. I understand and respect why some vote no. I also understand why some are not interested in the possibility of going through the hell of a bankruptcy and possible liquidation. It is a tough decision either way. To demean anyone as "gutless" or a "coward" for voting yes is as ridiculous as criticizing those who vote no when you consider the implications of this decision. I understand your sentiments but....are you implying even in the slightest that your pilot pay at any airline was even a sliver of a reason the airline liquidated? Your pay was to high to keep the airline in business and if you would work for cheaper it would still be in business????? |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 1121081)
Question: how many airlines have been in Chapter 11/13 over the last decade?
Second question: how many of those have been non-WO regional airlines that provide contract fee-for-departure lift? Third question: how many have ceased operations and liquidated via Chapter 7? FUD... Big Sky? |
Originally Posted by gonyon
(Post 1121061)
The REAL question anyway is whether you really think your 5% wage concessions affect avoiding bankruptcy or not. I don't believe it will. I think we are headed there sooner or later. It's kind of business as usual for airlines.
Let me add to this. The REAL question is will ANY wage concession avoid bankruptcy. We all think very highly of ourselves but we are only a single part of the cost equation. Much smaller than aircraft costs, fuel and maintenance. There isn't a single american airline out there from Legacy down to the smallest regional that the pilots get paid too much. SW pays their pilots more than our 777 Captains and they have posted a profit every quarter for the last 30 years except for what....two? Delta and American pilots get paid about the same right now and Delta posted a 1.4 BILLION dollar profit this year and American is BK. Pilot pay obviously didn't make or break them. Keep this in mind when anyone thinks their pilot pay will save the company's demise. |
Been through this before, not been through this before... It doesnt matter.
This is bigger than just "will this prevent bankruptcy at pinnacle". Its a statment to the industry as a whole in my opinion. /Begin Rant What are you worth as a pilot? EVERYONE one working at Pinnacle, or any other regional for that matter, EVERYONE knew that they are entering an industry that is known for extreme ups, and extreme downs. Especially the side of the industry that we are in, the regionals. No one looking at working at a regional ever said to themselves, "this is forever, I am going to be happy here!". What happens is that people get cozy with their seniority and dont want to take the pay cut or cut in QOL by moving up to a major like they originally planned. My point is, we ALL knew what we were getting in to when we signed up for this gig and we all assumed the risks. It is our responsibility to have our own back up plans just in case. Whats the advice we always give to young teens looking to aspire to become pilots? Get a degree in somthing other than aviation, THEN pursue the flying. We cant all be blind to our own advice. Personally I have a plan B and plan B and a half. Just for situations like this. In regards to the argument of if we vote no, we lose it all... I disagree. If we vote yes, we do what pilots before us have done for years. We bow our heads to those who feed our supposed "addiction" to fly. If we vote yes we bow our heads to those in corporate who are used to the idea of the "Let me fly your jet for free" pilots. If we vote yes, we are continuing to prostitute, yes prostitute, our hard earned, highly skilled trade out to corporate mis-managment and greed. As a group of high skilled, well trained, highly capable pilots who take tens of thousands of people from point A to point B safely multiple times a day, WE need to draw a line. because if we dont, we have NO RIGHT to come on to boards like this, go to Nightline, CNN or congress to complain. Because we have been, and would have continued to be the ones to blame. Our industry treats pilots like dirt because when they shove our face in the sand with pay cuts or say "fly my plane for peanuts", and This is what SM is asking us to do now, those pilots before us said: "yessir, thankyou sir, let me keep flying for poverty wages sir, THANK YOU!" I for one, say how dare you? How dare you propose taking 5% away from my salary when I can just barely cover rent for a one bedroom apartment and purchase groceries based on what I make today? Where do you get the audacity to ask that of me? How dare you ask that of me, Sean Menke. I paid close to $45,000 of my hard earned cash to pay for my flight training. It took me 6 years from my intro flight till I got my first regional job (I did not sell out to the first bidder and chose from three that offered me a job). I am not here to just so I can get my hands on a shiny plane, be it a 900, 200 400, saab or Superjumbostratoliner jet. I am here because its what I enjoy doing, and I do it well. It is my CAREER and deserve to be paid fairly for the level of experience and responsibilty that the position entails. My 5% did not bring Pinnacle to where it is today. Management oversight did. Redundant positions, poor scheduling technuiqe, lack of proper maintenance and operations like running IAD with 5 Q400s based there with no reserve crews to back it up brought Pinnacle to where it is. And guess what, your 5% is not what got it here either. Its time to take a stand and set a precedent that I can only hope other regional groups will follow. Look at history, look at how often the pay cuts actually helped and then look at how often then didnt. What are you worth as a pilot? I can assure you it is more than what our industry standard is today, because people before us, in our position bowed their head and sold themselves out to poor managment decisions. So look at youself in the mirror and honestly ask yourself: "What is all of my training, skill and experience worth?" I know what I am worth. My vote is no. /end rant Disclaimer: Agree with me, or not... I didnt post this to hear you tell me I am wrong or right. I posted this because I feel this issue is bigger than the sum of pinnacle and it has always sicked me that we cant see that our worst enemy in this industry is us. |
Question: let's say that somehow the company and the union come to some sort of agreement that provides for 5% in overall savings from the pilot group without cutting wages or increasing insurance costs. Would that still draw such an adamant "no" vote from everyone?
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+1 to the above post. The truth is: PNCL is either going or not going into BK. Our 5% has no bearing on this, we must all accept it. If you were management, how much of a difference can a 5% cut to your pilot's already low pay save per flight hour in comparison to all the other associated expenses with running an airline? Little, if any. VOTE NO.
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Originally Posted by Bzwebner
(Post 1121096)
Been through this before, not been through this before... It doesnt matter.
This is bigger than just "will this prevent bankruptcy at pinnacle". Its a statment to the industry as a whole in my opinion. /Begin Rant What are you worth as a pilot? EVERYONE one working at Pinnacle, or any other regional for that matter, EVERYONE knew that they are entering an industry that is known for extreme ups, and extreme downs. Especially the side of the industry that we are in, the regionals. No one looking at working at a regional ever said to themselves, "this is forever, I am going to be happy here!". What happens is that people get cozy with their seniority and dont want to take the pay cut or cut in QOL by moving up to a major like they originally planned. My point is, we ALL knew what we were getting in to when we signed up for this gig and we all assumed the risks. It is our responsibility to have our own back up plans just in case. Whats the advice we always give to young teens looking to aspire to become pilots? Get a degree in somthing other than aviation, THEN pursue the flying. We cant all be blind to our own advice. Personally I have a plan B and plan B and a half. Just for situations like this. In regards to the argument of if we vote no, we lose it all... I disagree. If we vote yes, we do what pilots before us have done for years. We bow our heads to those who feed our supposed "addiction" to fly. If we vote yes we bow our heads to those in corporate who are used to the idea of the "Let me fly your jet for free" pilots. If we vote yes, we are continuing to prostitute, yes prostitute, our hard earned, highly skilled trade out to corporate mis-managment and greed. As a group of high skilled, well trained, highly capable pilots who take tens of thousands of people from point A to point B safely multiple times a day, WE need to draw a line. because if we dont, we have NO RIGHT to come on to boards like this, go to Nightline, CNN or congress to complain. Because we have been, and would have continued to be the ones to blame. Our industry treats pilots like dirt because when they shove our face in the sand with pay cuts or say "fly my plane for peanuts", and This is what SM is asking us to do now, those pilots before us said: "yessir, thankyou sir, let me keep flying for poverty wages sir, THANK YOU!" I for one, say how dare you? How dare you propose taking 5% away from my salary when I can just barely cover rent for a one bedroom apartment and purchase groceries based on what I make today? Where do you get the audacity to ask that of me? How dare you ask that of me, Sean Menke. I paid close to $45,000 of my hard earned cash to pay for my flight training. It took me 6 years from my intro flight till I got my first regional job (I did not sell out to the first bidder and chose from three that offered me a job). I am not here to just so I can get my hands on a shiny plane, be it a 900, 200 400, saab or Superjumbostratoliner jet. I am here because its what I enjoy doing, and I do it well. It is my CAREER and deserve to be paid fairly for the level of experience and responsibilty that the position entails. My 5% did not bring Pinnacle to where it is today. Management oversight did. Redundant positions, poor scheduling technuiqe, lack of proper maintenance and operations like running IAD with 5 Q400s based there with no reserve crews to back it up brought Pinnacle to where it is. And guess what, your 5% is not what got it here either. Its time to take a stand and set a precedent that I can only hope other regional groups will follow. Look at history, look at how often the pay cuts actually helped and then look at how often then didnt. What are you worth as a pilot? I can assure you it is more than what our industry standard is today, because people before us, in our position bowed their head and sold themselves out to poor managment decisions. So look at youself in the mirror and honestly ask yourself: "What is all of my training, skill and experience worth?" I know what I am worth. My vote is no. /end rant Disclaimer: Agree with me, or not... I didnt post this to hear you tell me I am wrong or right. I posted this because I feel this issue is bigger than the sum of pinnacle and it has always sicked me that we cant see that our worst enemy in this industry is us. |
Originally Posted by tennisguru
(Post 1121117)
Question: let's say that somehow the company and the union come to some sort of agreement that provides for 5% in overall savings from the pilot group without cutting wages or increasing insurance costs. Would that still draw such an adamant "no" vote from everyone?
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Originally Posted by Imapilot2
(Post 1121083)
I understand your sentiments but....are you implying even in the slightest that your pilot pay at any airline was even a sliver of a reason the airline liquidated? Your pay was to high to keep the airline in business and if you would work for cheaper it would still be in business?????
My point is that if this goes to a bankruptcy situation, it is not going to be the walk in the park that some of these no cheerleaders like Shyguy think its going to be. For that reason, I have been pointing out why I think some will vote for the cuts in the end, and why it shouldn't be held against them. Likewise, I understand why many will vote no, and that should not be held against them either. This will be a difficult decision for everyone, and each should vote their conscience (if it comes to that). |
Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 1121079)
Kat, don't take this as a personal jab.
I have been through this, and as a result of the "education" of Comair going through BK, voting for cuts, and still shrinking, I know exactly how I would vote given this situation. You can spell it with two letters and one of them is N. I don't take it personally. I understand why you feel the way you do. I was working in CS at Comair before the DL buyout, and left there just after the strike because I could see the handwriting on the wall with DL. Still have lots of friends there, and some days it really makes you angry when you realize how Delta has systematically destroyed what was once a great company and a great place to work. That being said, I also respect the reasons why some would want to do everything possible to avoid bankruptcy, and give DL even more power to decide Pinnacle's fate. |
My point is that if this goes to a bankruptcy situation, it is not going to be the walk in the park that some of these no cheerleaders like Shyguy think its going to be. For that reason, I have been pointing out why I think some will vote for the cuts in the end, and why it shouldn't be held against them. Likewise, I understand why many will vote no, and that should not be held against them either. This will be a difficult decision for everyone, and each should vote their conscience (if it comes to that). In every single case I can think of where pilots voted in paycuts to "help" the airline, they all declared bankruptcy a short time later to a few years later, WHILE still operating under those cut wages! LEARN FROM HISTORY! |
Originally Posted by FlyingKat
(Post 1120964)
To demean anyone as "gutless" or a "coward" for voting yes is as ridiculous as criticizing those who vote no when you consider the implications of this decision.
By the way, where does all this talk of liquidation and shutting the doors come from? That's just people letting their fear get the better of them... |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1121004)
Uh, no. Because for the lifers, they are lifers. No other lifeline left other than Pinnacle corp. The whiners and upgrade chasers will just run to the next crappy operation that has (relatively) quick movement.
Pilots at other regionals don't decide where the flying comes from. You just know it all don't you? Well Hurry your whiney self up and go to GoJet since you want to be a street CA there so bad. I'll write the LOR for you. |
Anyone know if it's true the company couldn't pay rent for the Mesaba training HQ in Eagan, MN?
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u see, thats where they get a quick, easy AND free 5%. the stupid pilot group willingly gives up the 5% then they declare bankruptcy - then they take a resonable ( to the judge) 8-10% him not knowing that u just took 5-- SO>>>>>>> after its all said and done- that 5% u gave now becomes 13-15% game over you lose.
thats why you always say no to a peddly 5%--- 5% is a complete joke in the grand scheme of things-- ur payrates arent what keeps pinnancle out of BK- it's what makes them much more profitable, quicker when coming out-- DUH! |
Lynx pilots were forced to take a pay cut. Years later they have yet to get the 10% back.
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The 5% is simply a way to fund current management's golden parachutes. We give up 5%, Sean and the team get bonuses regardless of BK or not.
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In PNCL's forward looking statements, 2012 and 2013 was looking like roses:
“These investments will result in a strong company in 2012 and beyond,” said Mr Hunt. “When we sat down with Delta to acquire Mesaba the goal was to provide a better product for Delta and a better cost structure for both. To that end we have an early rate increase based on the increased costs of integrating the three pilot groups and the new pilot contract which will come 12 months from now. We will get a one-time payment as much as USD18-20 million to cover the cost increases incurred over the next 12 months for the contract and pilot training and relocation costs as well as integration costs. In addition, the contract includes forward looking changes in rates that will start in the Spring of 2012 that the company currently estimates at USD14 million annually. So, 2011 will be a down year because we won’t have the benefit of the rate increase until 2012. But that means a vastly improved 2012 and beyond and that is where the focus needs to be.” The company will also see its first rate increase in 10 years for its former Northwest operations effective in January 2013. The original contract called for an adjustment every five years but Northwest was in bankruptcy when the first five years came due, putting off any rate increases until 2013. However, during the past decade, said Mr Hunt, cost increases have far outpaced inflation owing to its ageing CRJ200 fleet. Consequently, the company is in for a sizeable increase beginning 2013. |
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 1121298)
In PNCL's forward looking statements, 2012 and 2013 was looking like roses:
Question, if PNCL gets give backs, do they plan on giving back to momma D? |
Well management's reason for the 5% from pilot pay is to supposedly save $8 million a year. So for a billion dollar holding company, they actually need $8 million in order to avoid bankruptcy?? I believe everybody sentiments, at least in the crew rooms, is to vote no to this, if it ever comes down to a vote. They're biggest hurdle to the loss of quarter numbers as of late, is the cost of the integrated seniority list and all the retraining that has to be accomplished. There are so many ways management can tackle this issue without having to resort to chap. 11 scare tactics, "take pay cuts, or we may seize operation" But I suppose if they didn't resort to scare tactics they wont feel like a real airline management.
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yeah they use the pilot givebacks to help fund the training costs-- hilarious!
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Originally Posted by mimatti
(Post 1121470)
Well management's reason for the 5% from pilot pay is to supposedly save $8 million a year. So for a billion dollar holding company, they actually need $8 million in order to avoid bankruptcy?? I believe everybody sentiments, at least in the crew rooms, is to vote no to this, if it ever comes down to a vote. They're biggest hurdle to the loss of quarter numbers as of late, is the cost of the integrated seniority list and all the retraining that has to be accomplished. There are so many ways management can tackle this issue without having to resort to chap. 11 scare tactics, "take pay cuts, or we may seize operation" But I suppose if they didn't resort to scare tactics they wont feel like a real airline management.
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Originally Posted by block30
(Post 1121505)
I'm with mimatti :cool:
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Originally Posted by PCLCREW
(Post 1121516)
I agree also... But the 16 900's and the Q's should have never been bought, but that was PT's gamble and he walked away with a nice package. Now many people may lose their jobs while he sits back and could care less. Gotta love America and its dirt bags.
You sound like a socialist commie. Merika, free market capitalism, prosperity. When you lose your healthcare after being fired, remember, merika, free choice, pay your own way. When you complain about PT and DS you are just expressing envy and you are against success. |
Originally Posted by gonyon
(Post 1121525)
You sound like a socialist commie. Merika, free market capitalism, prosperity. When you lose your healthcare after being fired, remember, merika, free choice, pay your own way. When you complain about PT and DS you are just expressing envy and you are against success.
What are you PTs kid? |
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