One thing is for sure, I would rather have Pinnacle losing the money on our flying than our mainline partner losing money on our flying.

Why just the ATL 900s and not the rest? Are they a different contract? Is it because of the size of the base?

ATL 900's are pre-merger Pinnacle ones that are under a different ASA than the new ones brought in by Mesaba.

Two entire fleets and a small number of airframes in a particular base are "losing money"...and yet the company as a whole is operationally profitable...

Two salient words here my friends, cash flow...what it truly comes down to in the final analysis.

Correcto..... Its now just a matter of when??

PNCL owns the 16 -900's in ATL. DL owns all the XJ 900's, 200's, and 9E 200's. Owning the planes seems to be more expensive than just operating them.

This may be old already but....

Pinnacle?s CEO Warns of Chapter 11 Amid Worsening Financials - Bloomberg

I like how the letter implies that Bloch should have put up higher fences to ease the training burden on the company. Last time I checked that wasn't part of his job description. I know it's highly unlikely, but for all they know the three merger committees could have come to an agreement outside of arbitration.

He should just come out and say that the management team who signed the contract (including our current COO) couldn't see the forest for the trees.

Gotta love this industry.

Actually, it is, and he got paid very well for it. Even a retarded monkey would have put airline-specific fences to ensure that you don't have a massive migration right away, which is exactly what happened in 11-09.

Over/under for furloughs? Im betting at least 500
i seriously hope not though
for those of you who thing Sean M. is beating around the bush re read the letter slowly, he is doing something hardly any ceo's would do, he is getting us ready. He basically just told us their plans in my opinion. If United and Delta dont budge, we are going to lose aprox 80 airplanes Saabs, Q's and limited jets.

Where in the ALPA Merger Policy does it charge an arbitrator with ensuring that fences are applied to avoid excessive training costs for the merged airline?

I agree. Not many CEO's would communicate these details to the employee group in a letter, most would let them read about it in a press release after the ship had already sailed (or sunk).

Even if the fences were higher they would still have rediculously high training costs. the mesaba jet guys getting retrained to fly 9e, the mesaba saab guys getting re trained to fly something else, and some of the boston saab guys getting retrained to fly something else. add on that the jets for 9e were understaffed so they had to re train others anyway. if the captain fences were higher then 9e fos would upgrade and you would still have to train any FO's jumping over from the props to take their place or new hires. maybe some language does need to be fixed in the CBA so that a domicile change doesnt cause a seperate training event but training costs were going to be astronomical anyway because of the cluster that they set up in the first place, not bloch. Bloch simply used the numbers that we currently had for the fences. if pinnacle wanted them higher they should have had the staffing higher on the jet side in the first place.

Exactly. Vote No people. there is no point in voting yes.

Just a comment on the page before about why 9e 900 are loosing money but not the XJ ones. You have to remember XJ didnt get any to very little pay raises so our agreement had those cost negotiated in when the agreement was signed. The 9e 900's and 9L Q400;s where all negotiated expecting a lot lower labor costs.

Now the above is not saying we should take lower rates it was to answer a few people questions on how some can make money and not others. Delta was fine with the XJ contracts with higher labor so they will live with high 9e contracts. We just have to hope they will be willing to part willing from then money.(Like that will happen) My opinion is we are going to BK anyways so we might as well get our full pay until they force us to take a pay cut. Just like Delta and United will most likely do.

Only a pilot is arrogant enough to assume that the company's success is made or broken by his paycheck.

Curious, what will Delta and United do?

Aint that the truth.

Regional jets cost between $1,750-2,00 per hour of operation. If a crew costs goes up or down 5-10 bucks it is relatively insignificant.

Forming a base in JFK and ATL where delays are rampant, and the contractual income is derived from on-time performance, costs 9E exponentially more than wage increases.

Regional jets cost a LOT more than that per hour to operate...

First hour fuel burn is what, 3000lbs/450gal? At $3/gal (and I think many airlines are paying more than that) that's $1350 just for fuel...before you consider the amortized cost of engines, APU, parts, maintenance labor, and lease/debt service.

But your point that crew costs are, by comparison, insignificant on a per-hour basis is valid.

I think a lot of you are missing the point of SM's letter. The only reason a CEO would write a letter like that to his employees (knowing EVERYONE will read it) is PRESSURE. It is quite clear what he's saying here: "If we don't get relief from corporate synergy, partner contracts AND LABOR, we will declare BK." This is a threat if I've ever heard one. Even if BK is NOT in our future, it would still benefit the company by threatening it.

Let's say negotiations with Delta and United are actually going well. Releasing that kind of information would not put the kind of pressure the company wants on the labor groups. It would send a clear message to us AND our mainline partners that if there is no relief, drastic measures will be taken.

I honestly believe that our 5% would make little or no difference in fixing our company's financial problems. However, I DO believe that re-negotiating CPA's with Delta and United WILL fix most of it. They are at the negotiating table right now and need to threaten parking airplanes (by declaring BK) and force them to give back. They are using the same tactic with us. Let's say all the 9E 900's and 9L Q's got parked TOMORROW. What do you think Delta/United would do? It is a VERY effective way to force them to come to the table.

Telling your labor groups that things are "progressing well in negotiations" would be foolish for SM to do. However due to the sensitivity of it and the NDA's the MEC has signed there would be no way of knowing exactly where we stand.

Don't fall for the scare tactic. Vote NO to concessions.

Where in ALPA merger policy did Mesaba's union try to take a stance to sell out on my date of hire as sim date, and not class date? I got PAID from day one of class, and yet, the XJ union tried to screw me out of nearly 2 months of seniority. Not entirely their fault, it was JH's fault for not making it clear from day one.

It's common sense. When 11-09 came out, we already had tons of pilots jumping across airlines when we were still 3 separate entities. For crying out loud, the Mesaba/Pinnacle fenced operation wasn't even approved when the vacancy award came out! That kind of movement is not viable, nor sustainable.

No. They should have kept all 3 separate for at least two years to ride out the economy. Mesaba would have downgraded and furloughed, Pinnacle would have hired, and Colgan would have hired their own. Everyone separate would have prevented re-training costs. Worry about whipsaw and one list at a later date once the economy improved. But no, the royal highnesses at Mesaba's union and Mr. Pushover SE unilaterally agreed that we must have one seniority list right away!

If you guys think this **** storm is bad, just wait until the Saabs are parked. Most Colgan Saab Captains were hired in 2007 and 2008, and a large amount (the ones hired on/before Feb 2008) have super seniority on the list (#s 1000-1400). They are more senior than the most junior Pinnacle Captains from Oct 2006 - Feb 2007. Pinnacle's worse case scenario will be that we will displace ALL our Captains on the 200, right down to only 541 total as protected by the quota, while Colgan Saab Captains get displaced off the parked Saab fleet.

Tell Pinnacle to go pound sand and have them replaced before the CEO left the room.

Delta IMO was the instigator in those entire thing.

I agree. their crazy schedule changes while refuting rate increases is a ploy to drive us into bnkrptcy. They probably engineered this thing with philly right before he left, knowing they would be able to get a better deal out of mesaba, pncl and maybe dump some 50 seaters or at the very least get better lease rates.

And who exactly will they will replace them with the next day? because replacing 40+ airplanes is sooooo easy. How many flights will be cancel while United find a way to replace all those routes? If you would have said, they'll be replace within a year. That, I can see, but have them replaced that quick? really? :rolleyes:

I cannot tell people in that situation how to view things but I know how I would look at all of this if I were still at 9E, after so many years of negotiation to secure a new contract, not just NO but HELL NO

Oh. You should have told me you were bitter and living in the SLI process still. It would explain you mixing facts with emotion. If you think Bloch is partly to blame for the current financial situation of the company you are wrong. It was not his job to run crew staffing scenarios for an airline, it was his job to merge three seniority lists into one.

Tomorrow maybe I will blame my leaky faucet on the water meter guy.

+1
 

Spot on!

The next day? We're not filing Ch 13...there's still the somewhat lengthy court process to go through. Enough time for Conited to get a half-assed (ie normal operational plan) contingency plan slapped together.

[QUOTE=Silver02ex;1120622]And who exactly will they will replace them with the next day? because replacing 40+ airplanes is sooooo easy. How many flights will be cancel while United find a way to replace all those routes? If you would have said, they'll be replace within a year. That, I can see, but have them replaced that quick? really?

the point is this scenerio is just hypothetical board drama. this is not a game of unknown moves. it was orchestrated way back when delta was going to drop pinnacle then changed its mind. Everthing since has been planned to a t.

And don't think Conited hasn't started closed-door discussions with their other regional affiliates.

Now, why would Unental increase their rates before b ruptcy? when they can get away with increasing them less passing on the difference to other vendors and the flight attendants who make 16k a year.

there is no compassion in business. Hell is going to be full of executives.

i honestly dont see pinnacle pilots taking pay rate cuts at all, maybe some pilot merger rules and that is it.

Sometimes its better to give up 5% than to lose 100%.

the root problem for all regional pilots, the uninformed voter

i would pay to see you say that to a comair pilot....you wouldn't make it out of the room in one piece

Hahahahaaaa..... So which are you, the lifer or the KoolAid drinker?

the lifers will stfd faster than you whiners and upgrade chasers

It is also better to give up 35% than to lose 100%. Where do we draw the line?

We don't draw the line. We vote for the paycuts and pass the buck to the next pilot group, expecting someone else to make the stand. Meanwhile, we scratch our heads and wonder why this career continues the downward slide.