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This is being sent to the pilot group.
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update on alpas response is coming out tonight
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Good luck guys. This is completely effed. If you need 5% from a regional (or hell, any) pilot group to make things work, you need to turn in your MBA for a full refund and go flip burgers for a living.
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Update on Discussions with the Company
We recognize the difficult position our pilots face when they see a concessionary “ask” without the background data supporting the need for that request. Your local representatives, MEC officers and negotiators do not like having data we cannot share with the pilots who elected us and to whom we report. Know that we will use due diligence, that we will verify the data prior to reaching any conclusions, and that all Pinnacle pilots will have a vote should any agreement be reached. To that end, during tonight’s MEC conference call, the MEC unanimously passed a resolution that states: “Any tentative agreement that includes concessions shall be subject to membership ratification.” The Negotiating committee, Chairman Tom Wychor, and Vice-Chairman Jonathan Allen met with the company for the second day to present a counter-proposal to the company’s initial asks that were presented yesterday. We began our discussions with the 5% wage concessions. We communicated our need to better understand the economics warranting this concession, and stated that our time would be better spent on the more complex Section 24 issues. We currently have ALPA’s Economic and Finance Analysis department analyzing the financial data that the company provided us. We will return to Section 3 discussions after obtaining more detailed information and analysis. We continued the discussion by presenting ALPA’s proposal to help reduce training costs as our company faces a complex and costly integration. We discussed potential solutions for saving on training costs through adjustments in our Section 24 language, which we will explain in detail should our negotiations produce a tentative agreement. We also contemplated the possibility of altering the 11-09 award, but changes will be limited by the need to conduct the training necessary to eliminate the Mesaba Saabs and build up the crew complement in previously understaffed positions. Many of you are concerned about the possibility of negotiating concessions to our current agreement now, only to enter bankruptcy in the near future. The MEC and the Negotiating committee shares your concerns and is taking steps to allow for proactive engagement to avoid bankruptcy, while protecting our position should the company file. The Negotiating committee is scheduled to meet with the company tomorrow at 1:00 CST. We will promptly communicate to you any updates that result from tomorrow’s meeting. |
“Any tentative agreement that includes concessions shall be subject to immediate rejection.”
FYP |
So why is the first priority cutting pilots pay???
Why not first look at the hundreds of new hires still in a hotel going on 9 months now and collecting 24/7 per diem??? What about all the other rediculus items that are truly wasteful spending....?! Makes me want to lock up the brakes....just saying. 6 more hours and the FAA will release the new flight time and duty regulations at 10:00am. That should mix well with this phoney baloney mess. |
This is not being sent to the pilot group. This is straight from the communication that was sent out tonight. Pilots will vote. |
Originally Posted by The Juice
(Post 1105434)
"Any tentative agreement that includes concessions shall be subject to membership ratification.”
This is straight from the communication that was sent out tonight. Pilots will vote. |
Originally Posted by sinsilvia666
(Post 1105404)
Know that we will use due diligence, that we will verify the data prior to reaching any conclusions, and that all Pinnacle pilots will have a vote should any agreement be reached. To that end, during tonight’s MEC conference call, the MEC unanimously passed a resolution that states: “Any tentative agreement that includes concessions shall be subject to membership ratification.”
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1105329)
It doesnt matter what we want, due to the quick timeline, the line pilots will not be voting. Our union leadership will be casting the vote for this one. If they vote no, we are all on the same page. But what if they vote yes? If that happens our paycut will be effective Jan 1st. And with medical insurance premiums much higher than last year, most of us will learn less than this year.
Of course shy will not be on this thread for a week and respond. He does that whenever proven wrong and hopes it will blow over.... |
I really think all pilots at all stages of their career need to consider what they will put up with. I have a secondary career in which I am currently employed. This is not nearly as fun as flying jets, but I like eating steaks, not ramen noodles. I just know a man has to stand up for himself, never depend on management or some socialist union to do your bidding for you.
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Originally Posted by sinsilvia666
(Post 1105404)
Update on Discussions with the Company
We recognize the difficult position our pilots face when they see a concessionary “ask” without the background data supporting the need for that request. Your local representatives, MEC officers and negotiators do not like having data we cannot share with the pilots who elected us and to whom we report. Know that we will use due diligence, that we will verify the data prior to reaching any conclusions, and that all Pinnacle pilots will have a vote should any agreement be reached. To that end, during tonight’s MEC conference call, the MEC unanimously passed a resolution that states: “Any tentative agreement that includes concessions shall be subject to membership ratification.” The Negotiating committee, Chairman Tom Wychor, and Vice-Chairman Jonathan Allen met with the company for the second day to present a counter-proposal to the company’s initial asks that were presented yesterday. We began our discussions with the 5% wage concessions. We communicated our need to better understand the economics warranting this concession, and stated that our time would be better spent on the more complex Section 24 issues. We currently have ALPA’s Economic and Finance Analysis department analyzing the financial data that the company provided us. We will return to Section 3 discussions after obtaining more detailed information and analysis. We continued the discussion by presenting ALPA’s proposal to help reduce training costs as our company faces a complex and costly integration. We discussed potential solutions for saving on training costs through adjustments in our Section 24 language, which we will explain in detail should our negotiations produce a tentative agreement. We also contemplated the possibility of altering the 11-09 award, but changes will be limited by the need to conduct the training necessary to eliminate the Mesaba Saabs and build up the crew complement in previously understaffed positions. Many of you are concerned about the possibility of negotiating concessions to our current agreement now, only to enter bankruptcy in the near future. The MEC and the Negotiating committee shares your concerns and is taking steps to allow for proactive engagement to avoid bankruptcy, while protecting our position should the company file. The Negotiating committee is scheduled to meet with the company tomorrow at 1:00 CST. We will promptly communicate to you any updates that result from tomorrow’s meeting. ALPA should tell management to cut their pay by 50% prior to the next meeting if they want the pilot group to even consider a 5% pay cut. VOTE NO AND STAY STRONG! Good luck. |
Whether we vote yes or no on concessions will have nothing to do with BK. If its going to happen, its going to happen. You don't flirt with bankruptcy because you are 5% over budget. Funny how our CEO and CFO have already been through this before... We need shed the things that aren't making money, get it? Half of it is already moving anyways. Hasn't made money for years and never will... be gone with it.
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Fu pm
I know this has been gone over before in this thread but I would like to drive this point home.
We took a 3.46 million dollar loss in the last quarter which is why management is trying to get us to accept consessions. Lets not forget that management paid out 3.5 to 4 million dollars in bonuses to their buddies in upper management. If those bonuses were not paid out, we would have had a breakeven to positive quarter. The SEC (securities and exchange commision) and shareholders should be made aware of this if anyone knows how. Management has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders and should be held accountable for the shortfall not the pilot group. They made the mess, they get to clean it up. Stay strong and stay united. Management underestimated the unintened consequences of this debacle- ONE PILOT GROUP STANDING TOGETHER +1 for "NO CONSESSIONS" |
Does anybody else see the irony in this? Just a few months back, Sean put out a memo talking about the importance of a unified employee group. Not sure how the other union groups are doing, but this sure seems to have brought the pilots together:D
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Based on the last 10-Q, it looks like a 5% across-the-board wage/benefit reduction would be worth $5.43M per quarter.
But again, PNCL is already operationally profitable...and that includes the impact of wages/benefits. |
Originally Posted by sinsilvia666
(Post 1105404)
Many of you are concerned about the possibility of negotiating concessions to our current agreement now, only to enter bankruptcy in the near future. The MEC and the Negotiating committee shares your concerns and is taking steps to allow for proactive engagement to avoid bankruptcy, while protecting our position should the company file.
Just look at the pilots of Comair, Frontier, and American - they voted for concessions to stay out of bankruptcy, and it worked out great!!! Vote YES with confidence that nothing bad can happen. Your YES vote means ALPA is takin' it back! |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 1105846)
Based on the last 10-Q, it looks like a 5% across-the-board wage/benefit reduction would be worth $5.43M per quarter.
But again, PNCL is already operationally profitable...and that includes the impact of wages/benefits. |
Who should I believe? Shy or the union? oh the decisions..... Of course shy will not be on this thread for a week and respond. He does that whenever proven wrong and hopes it will blow over.... |
Originally Posted by BoilerUP
(Post 1105846)
Based on the last 10-Q, it looks like a 5% across-the-board wage/benefit reduction would be worth $5.43M per quarter.
But again, PNCL is already operationally profitable...and that includes the impact of wages/benefits. I've been on a four month paid vacation courtesy of Pinnacle. Just going off the guarantee that I've been paid will cover 30 pilots' worth of concessions. This inefficient use of our resources what is making us unprofitable, not our hourly wages. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1106107)
No, I'll respond. I am wrong, the assumption was based on the fact that any union voting issues are standard 3 week duration for votes. Management wants these cuts effective Jan 1st, which means we have 9 days to get a vote created and tallied. I can't even begin to imagine how many pilots are already out on vacation or will be unavailable to vote during the busy Christmas and New Years period. This is a surprising step, but a good one indeed. Honestly, I wasn't expecting that the MEC would vote no to concessions. Now it is in our hands. Our big problem will be the lack of time to get the vote in.
The company is the one asking, not telling. Funny how a year ago the company shut down negotiations for the JCBA because of the holiday and now that are willing to work through it. |
Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
(Post 1105763)
Whether we vote yes or no on concessions will have nothing to do with BK. If its going to happen, its going to happen. You don't flirt with bankruptcy because you are 5% over budget. Funny how our CEO and CFO have already been through this before... We need shed the things that aren't making money, get it? Half of it is already moving anyways. Hasn't made money for years and never will... be gone with it.
The following was an interesting read... American Airlines draws new bankruptcy judge in NY | Reuters Also, remember what has to be met for a 1113 motion. A pro-business BK court in NY + 1113 motion can be a very bad day. Just food for thought. |
[QUOTE=PropDriver;1106260]And during Q2 2012 Delta will be paying us $15-20 million to cover the increased costs of our pilot contract, training costs, and an increase in the rate Delta pays us for our flights. That payment right there will cover the ENTIRE 2011 year to date loss TIMES TWO.
I don't know much about bankruptcy but wouldn't the courts reject a filing under such circumstances as a case in which the old lady with a Virginia Ham in one hand is crying because she has no bread? |
Originally Posted by The Juice
(Post 1106369)
The following was an interesting read...
American Airlines draws new bankruptcy judge in NY | Reuters Also, remember what has to be met for a 1113 motion. A pro-business BK court in NY + 1113 motion can be a very bad day. Just food for thought. |
Originally Posted by gonyon
(Post 1106382)
I wonder what constitutes a "breakdown" in negotiations here? is it the same criteria used by the nmb to determine an impasse?
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Originally Posted by The Juice
(Post 1106394)
I dont know and wont pretend to know much about BK court. That is why I will wait and listen from those who do (legal) and my new quest for self education on the topic. There is a lot to learn and know between "FUPM" and "Take whatever you want."
http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov/opinion...64_opinion.pdf Page 8 - Some background on "Good Faith Negotiations" and the 1113c process. Page 14 - How Comair's president (who went on to become Delta's president of DCI, by the way) testified that pilot costs are why Delta took our planes away. Page 15 - Then-President of DCI, Shawn Anderson, lies under oath that throwing out Comair's pilot contract and imposing lower pilot costs will allow Delta to give Comair more planes and let Comair survive: ". . . If Comair can restructure itself so that its controllable costs are competitive, Delta should be able to increase, rather than decrease, the flying it contracts to Comair. This would mean that Comair would have an opportunity to grow, rather than shrink. With growth would come new job opportunities, and reduced unit costs, as more junior employees are added, and reduced unit overhead costs as the same facilities and overhead could be used to perform more flying." ". . . I am familiar with Comair’s restructuring plans, including its plan to reduce its controllable costs–both labor and non-labor. If Comair is able to restructure in accordance with its restructuring plans, I believe that Comair will be able to perform Delta Connection flying at a competitive price. Accordingly, I believe that the labor cost reductions in Comair’s business plan are necessary–indeed, essential–to Comair’s successful restructuring." I wonder if the judge cares, or even knows, that he got suckered? Page 17 - Delta describes how Comair "lost" planes to cheaper regionals as proof that Comair pilots need to have their expensive contract thrown out. This is akin to a bank robber using his crimes as proof that his job doesn't pay enough. Page 18 - Delta argues that the wage snapback (the only enforcement clause to the Fleet Guarantee that Delta was violating) would cost too much. Keep in mind that whatever ALPA promises you - as a guarantee that Pinnacle won't hold up their end of the deal - can be thrown out in bankruptcy. Page 20 - Delta's Ed Bastian argues that even though Comair had a $50 million profit that year, it was still necessary to reduce costs to keep flying at Comair. Page 22 - Judge points out that concessions must be made during BK; earlier concessions don't count. Page 23 - More "Good Faith" jabbering and ALPA wrist-slapping from the judge. Page 25 - Judge emphasizes that it is in Delta's best interests to grow Comair. |
What time of year makes for the best Chapter 11?
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Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 1107603)
What time of year makes for the best Chapter 11?
This time of year. Merry F'ing Christmas from your friends at One Commerce Square, Memphis, TN |
Originally Posted by ChipChelios
(Post 1106380)
I don't know much about bankruptcy but wouldn't the courts reject a filing under such circumstances as a case in which the old lady with a Virginia Ham in one hand is crying because she has no bread?
That's, of course, how corporate BK works. Now, with personal BK (good ol' 'ginny ham in your example), the courts will tell you to give everything you own up to your corporate creditors, and to h#ll with you. |
Originally Posted by sinsilvia666 http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
Many of you are concerned about the possibility of negotiating concessions to our current agreement now, only to enter bankruptcy in the near future. The MEC and the Negotiating committee shares your concerns and is taking steps to allow for proactive engagement to avoid bankruptcy, while protecting our position should the company file.
Originally Posted by Boomer
(Post 1106010)
In other words... if you vote for a pay cut now and get another pay cut if, (sorry) when Pinnacle files BK, then your pay cuts will buy ALPA a seat on the board of the restructured company.
Just look at the pilots of Comair, Frontier, and American - they voted for concessions to stay out of bankruptcy, and it worked out great!!! Vote YES with confidence that nothing bad can happen. Your YES vote means ALPA is takin' it back! Do not take any paycuts voluntarily!!!! The BK judge will just be starting from a lower payscale when he makes his cuts. Delta Pilots took a 32% paycut to keep us out of BK - guess what happened? BK and another 14% cut. :( You will or will not enter BK on reasons other than a paltry 5% cut. This is pure management BS. :eek: Do not fall for this. Scoop Good Luck and Merry Christmas! |
Met some very nice and professional guys on my time there, sorry to hear you are going through a rough patch now, I also agree that giving concessions prior to what may be inevitable is a bad move. All the best
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Originally Posted by PropDriver
(Post 1106260)
And during Q2 2012 Delta will be paying us $15-20 million to cover the increased costs of our pilot contract, training costs, and an increase in the rate Delta pays us for our flights. That payment right there will cover the ENTIRE 2011 year to date loss TIMES TWO.
I've been on a four month paid vacation courtesy of Pinnacle. Just going off the guarantee that I've been paid will cover 30 pilots' worth of concessions. This inefficient use of our resources what is making us unprofitable, not our hourly wages. |
Originally Posted by ebl14
(Post 1107761)
I'm guessing the delta side isn't losing money. Pinnacle was always profitable before colgan and mesaba came into the picture.
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So the latest MEC email has the following:
"...Meanwhile, ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis continues to review the company’s financial data. Representatives from this department will give a full report to the MEC at a special MEC meeting we have scheduled for January 2nd and 3rd in Memphis to aid in your representatives’ decision making. CEO Sean Menke will attend the second day of this meeting to brief the MEC on the company’s progress and to take questions." Does this mean that the pilot group won't be getting a say? |
So the latest MEC email has the following: "...Meanwhile, ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis continues to review the company’s financial data. Representatives from this department will give a full report to the MEC at a special MEC meeting we have scheduled for January 2nd and 3rd in Memphis to aid in your representatives’ decision making. CEO Sean Menke will attend the second day of this meeting to brief the MEC on the company’s progress and to take questions." Does this mean that the pilot group won't be getting a say? |
Guy's, "Full Pay To The Last Day" ...
You can work for free, your almost doing that now anyway, and it won't make any difference with PNL filing BK.... Don't fall for it, if they file deal with it then.... |
Originally Posted by mvndc10
(Post 1108468)
guy's, "full pay to the last day" ...
you can work for free, your almost doing that now anyway, and it won't make any difference with pnl filing bk.... Don't fall for it, if they file deal with it then.... |
+2, they just don't want to pay guys bypass pay. That's all!
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Originally Posted by Blackbird
(Post 1108547)
+2, they just don't want to pay guys bypass pay. That's all!
If your Reps had to sign Non-Disclosure Agreements that obviously tells you there is something within the business that the COMPANY does not want Wall Street to know about. I would bet it has to do with current cash on hand as well as specific business models operating cash flow or potential plans of a fleet reduction. Why would they trash their own stock? Did ANY of you take an economics class in college? |
Originally Posted by DMEarc
Did ANY of you take an economics class in college?
Besides, NDAs are pretty standard fare in any business negotiation. /aviation program graduate |
Originally Posted by DMEarc
(Post 1108554)
You think a Corporation with SEC scrutinization would fake a potential BK to avoid paying guys bypass pay? I think not.
If your Reps had to sign Non-Disclosure Agreements that obviously tells you there is something within the business that the COMPANY does not want Wall Street to know about. I would bet it has to do with current cash on hand as well as specific business models operating cash flow or potential plans of a fleet reduction. Why would they trash their own stock? Did ANY of you take an economics class in college? |
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