Gotta love capitalism and the free market.

Got to love folks like this - espousing the free market and capitalism right up until they get undercut by somebody willing to do the same job for less (or nothing).

There's no larger bastardization of the "free market" than somebody willing to work for nothing (internships notwithstanding).

If anybody were to ever come to me and say they'd fly for free, that'd be a guarantee that I'd never hire them. If you don't value yourself and your time enough to be financially compensated for the skill required and risk posed by operating an aircraft as a required crewmember, why should I ever think you'd value anything?

What about the above case with the charter company? Highly unlikely those CFI's were vying to fill "required" seats. Probably just King Air copilots.

Under 135, if OpSpecs require an SIC then it is a required crewmember position...even on an aircraft whose type certificate has provisions for only one required crewmember (like a King Air).

Duh. Most charter operators are single pilot in a King Air and throw CFIs in the right seat to make the pax feel better thinking they have a qualified copilot onboard.

How about ZERO percent from EVERYONE?


(I sure hope I missed your sarcasm.)

lol at this guy lol

Given the history of Wychor at Mesaba, I'd be very surprised if the union didn't agree to concessions outside of bankruptcy. I'd love to be wrong on this! One can only hope.

I actually agree with you on something haha. Yea, I think that Wychor is going to do everything he can for Menke and have only the MEC approve concessions and not send it to the entire Pilot Group, where he KNOWS it will fail..

By listening to Wychor on the conference I've come to the conclusion that he has a good head on his shoulders. Seems intelligent. Until proven otherwise I 100% support this man.

This place is falling apart, you don't think BK is going to bring about reduced flying? A bankruptcy is appearing highly likely, once declared you better bet that 200's are going to start to disappearing. This place could go down to 1200 pilots in a year. Are you going to wait for reality to slap you in the face before you accept it?

What this guy says. Look at airline history, specifically the past 10 years, most recently the AA guys. Hold the line guys! Good luck!

I'm pretty sure Menke and friends knows that if this goes to the pilots for a vote it will be a big "H#$% Fu#king NO", and I'm sure the Union guys know that if they allow this concession to happen without letting the pilot group vote, their days will be numbered. This is a chess game and the company is thinking 10 moves ahead of us lowly money hoarding pilots. IMO, bankruptcy is imminent and the company will end up getting more like 8% from the pilots and 11-09 will be canceled. Also, they will get the union to agree to omit that one little pesky sentence in the contract that deals with displacements, you know, the one that states the company must allow secondaries.

The frakking Lords of Kobol... Gods damn it.

With a comment like that, I'm guessing you don't have much 135 experience, let alone 135 experience with KAs.

Again, "most charter operators" can't just "throw CFIs into the right seat to make pax feel better" because their OpSpecs don't allow for that.

Yet how many CFIs come on forums like this saying that they got their "turbine" time riding right seat in King Airs.

Not that many that I've seen.

And certainly not Part 135.

Again, "most charter operators" can't just "throw CFIs into the right seat to make pax feel better" because their OpSpecs don't allow for that.


Sure they can. They just go on the load manifest as a passenger sitting in the right front seat. The "FO" can't log it, and can't fly, but they can get paid to sit there.

Boiler was under the assumption that most 135 operators are on the up and up and actually follow all the regulations. CFIs routinely fly right seat in King Air type a/c and illegally log it.

Unfortunately I have *allegedly heard of a place through a friend of a friend of a friend* that does this. :mad: Not ragging on Boiler...he is a wise poster....allegedly :)

Edit.....come to think of it....is that what happened in the Wellstone crash?

If the 135 op specs allow part 91 repo flights, the cfi can fly those legs and log it if they are appropriately rated. But, back to the point of this thread, I hope the Pinnacle guys can send a strong HELL NO!!! message and have it stick. It is disgusting that they would even ask you guys to give up more.

If the pilots end up having a say, I would say it would be a 90+% HELL NO!!!!!

Dang, if they cut 5% this job won't be worth it anymore. I might even qualify for unemployment again. Flying for the little airlines sucks, they did not tell me this when I paid for all those flying lessons. I'm starting to feel like I can't trust people anymore. Maybe we can sue somebody.

You can do this garbage and still be legal. It's good to hear that Boiler hasn't had to witness a lot of this BS, though - perhaps it's a regional (not regional in the airline sense) thing. Around here it started in earnest when everything went to hell in 2008. Autopilot-in-leu op spec for a King Air, Pilatus, or single pilot Citation, throw a dude in a pilot uniform in the right seat, list him/her on the manifest as a passenger - and off you go with the pax none the wiser.

It's friggin' unethical garbage, but it's amazing how shady 135 can be. Some of the feds around here don't even care if the monkey in the right seat works the radio, saying that the PTT isn't technically a 'flight control'. The good news is that at least around here, many of the operators still pay a day rate for the guy in the right seat - they're just trying to get around having to pay for the training.

If your opspecs call for another qualified crew member then you had better be trained to be a qualified crew member or your company is in violation, that said not all 135 operation require a second crew member take Cape Air for instance they operate single pilot as long as their auto pilot is not MELed, are there operators allowing CFIs to ride right seat and log time perhaps but I suppose it was on the 91 repo flight as long as the PIC is an MEI and is giving instruction the right seat time should be logged as DUAL GIVEN I don't think that MOST 135 operators using King Air type a/c would risk the insurance liability.. if you KNOW of some of these operators doing other wise do you want to share if its your belief that that kind of practice is wide spread I would hope you would alert your local FSDO if you think that the operation is shady and possibly a safety problem for the airspace which you operate in. Thoughts....

I know you are being facetious, but with the internet and all the information out there about how the regional airlines pay and treat pilots, it's hard to be sympathetic when they still come despite knowing what they are getting themselves into.

So any suggestion on where they should progress. Gone are the days of flight instructing for a few years then fly boxes then a turbo prop beech 1900 then a jet ect ect what suggestion do you have.

Well...the place my friends know of....well it did catch up to them. I have a feeling this is not an isolated problem unfortunately.

The days of 1000 CFI wonders getting hired straight into a jet are long gone!!!!!

Oh wait...

The age 65 rule pilot shortage will be starting next year!

Oh wait...

To expound on RJTrash's post with a little history timeline:

-----------------------------

2/05 - Delta sends the President of DCI to be the new Comair CEO. First week on the job, new CEO says he's there to cut costs so "Delta can stop giving planes to CHQ and start giving them to Comair again"; asks pilots to sign concessions within the month or the planes may go elsewhere.

3/05 - Comair ALPA pilots vote for concessionary contract #1 that includes fleet guarantee of 199 aircraft.

6/05 - Concessionary contract #1 goes into effect.

9/05 - Delta/Comair files Ch11, aircraft deliveries go to other DCI carriers.

1/06 - Comair pilots vote in favor of concessionary contract #2 (additional pay cuts and work rules) to avoid 1113c motion. Passes by 16 votes.

Summer 06 - FAs refuse to sign concessions, which negates pilot contract #2. FAs get 1113'd and lose.

Summer 06 - Comair loses Delta RFP, aircraft begin leaving Comair for SKW and ASA.

Fall 06 - ALPA MEC refuses to resign concessionary contract #2, pilots get 1113'd.

11/06 - Bankruptcy Judge Adelai Hardin rejects Pilot Contract, finding that the pilots had not "given anything up" in the bankruptcy. Due to some "last man standing" statute, he said all work groups must suffer a comparable amount. He dismissed the pay cuts three months before bankruptcy as "irrelevant" to his decision.

9/10 - 4th new CEO in 4 years announces that the Comair fleet is going to 44 aircraft, somewhat less than 199 aircraft guaranteed by 2005 concessions.

-----------------------------

I don't know what this has to do with the Pinnacle guys, but there you go.

This is Painful to read
Take note guys don't fall for the Okie Dokie

Solutions WHATS your Solution I hear alot of commentary but no Suggestion or Solution..

Pinnacle pilots, read and read again. There is nothing to be gained by concessions.

That is a point to be taken seriously... Juice you nailed it.

It doesnt matter what we want, due to the quick timeline, the line pilots will not be voting. Our union leadership will be casting the vote for this one. If they vote no, we are all on the same page. But what if they vote yes? If that happens our paycut will be effective Jan 1st. And with medical insurance premiums much higher than last year, most of us will learn less than this year.

Every single rep voting yes should be recalled by the pilot group. If it passes by a significant margin, theres even justification I'd say to consider decertifying ALPA.

Anyone find it convenient that the FT/DT announcement is tomorrow and most likely ALPA is voting tonight on this... If there is a demand for more pilots we would have more leverage and call the F word bluff. Maybe they saw it coming and want cuts to pay more pilots...

+1. I totally agree.

You have zero idea on what you are talking about. Zero! Zero! Zero! You have no idea who will be the ones voting on this.

You like to troll behind your computer and get off on being a negative wannabe soothsayer. Even your own pilots cant stand what you do, you think you do it in secrecy, but they all know who you are and so do I:eek:

Please get a life, it is embarrassing to watch you continue.