Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

Welcome to Airline Pilot Forums - Connect and get the inside scoop on Airline Companies

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ. Join our community today and start interacting with existing members. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free.


User Tag List

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-06-2006, 05:24 PM   #1  
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
 
groovinaviator's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: CL65 Captain
Posts: 484
Default The real problem with Mesa

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what is the real problem with Mesa. I have heard they have a terrible contract, but is there more than that? Are most of the ill feelings toward Mesa aimed at the pilots?
groovinaviator is offline  
Old 11-06-2006, 05:29 PM   #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
HotMamaPilot's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: FO - 757/767
Posts: 1,228
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by groovinaviator View Post
Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but what is the real problem with Mesa. I have heard they have a terrible contract, but is there more than that? Are most of the ill feelings toward Mesa aimed at the pilots?
My
Employer
Sucks
A$$
HotMamaPilot is offline  
Old 11-06-2006, 05:35 PM   #3  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Default

The problem with MESA is that the pilots continue to work for a scumbag CEO who said, "as long as resumes keep passing by my desk I am paying pilots to much" Would you respect anybody that works for somebody like that?
JoeyMeatballs is offline  
Old 11-06-2006, 07:03 PM   #4  
Banned
 
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: FO dhc-6
Posts: 523
Default

i was under the impression the reason they got screwed on the last contract was because they wanted to get the Freedom guys under their union so bad so if you want a little you have to give ALOT
hatetobreakit2u is offline  
Old 11-06-2006, 07:15 PM   #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
RJ85FO's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Lots and Lots of Days Off
Posts: 586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAABaroowski View Post
The problem with MESA is that
The ALPA president signed off on the CBA.

Sure management could be improved, yes the pilots voted yes in the majority, but the real problem here is that the union whom we pay to represent us signed off on rock bottom. Now regional managers all over the country aspire to reach the Mesa level of cost. It is happening right here at Mesaba as our own MEC assures us that our new TA is "still better than Mesa's CBA." This is a comparison no one should have to hear.
RJ85FO is offline  
Old 11-06-2006, 09:31 PM   #6  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 49
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAABaroowski View Post
The problem with MESA is that the pilots continue to work for a scumbag CEO who said, "as long as resumes keep passing by my desk I am paying pilots to much" Would you respect anybody that works for somebody like that?
And I'm sure that EVERY regional CEO says the same thing about their pilots. JO may have been the one reported to have said it, but don't think for a moment that every CEO out there isn't wondering to himself "man, I can't believe that I've got a pile of resumes for pilots wanting to work for the wages I pay". We're ALL underpaid...from first year FO's to Captains! Who here hasn't told a friend (outside of aviation) what they make, and the friend (in utter disbelief) responding "HOLY *******!...I thought you made at least 6 figures!".

SAAB, don't start with this "how can you respect someone who works for Mesa" stuff, because even you are contributing to the problem. Everyone is, for that matter. If we collectively had any "respect" for ourselves, we wouldn't be working at the regionals altogether. With the amount of training we have, time and money invested, making $20K a year to start is simply criminal. In short, until NO resumes are on a regional CEO's desk, the problems will continue.

Now, back to the original question, Mesa sucks due to (primarily) a ********y contract. I wasn't around when the contract was signed, but in order to educate myself, I ask practically every Captain I fly with "why in the world did you guys sign this POS?" (and with 87% in favor!!!). Responses vary, but the majority blame it on an incredibly spineless MEC (who, thankfully, and after many attempts, were removed from office several months ago) and, of course, Freedom A. Essentially, JO was ready, and willing, to move all flying to the newly-created, alter-ego, union-busting Freedom Airlines (ala GoJet). If the pilots and ALPA/MEC weren't willing to concede on practically all issues, JO didn't care, and would transfer flying to his non-union brainchild. End of story. Obviously, this would have resulted in immediate furloughs, and a strike was not possible due to not meeting some "cooling off" period/guideline in the RLA (I can't elaborate on that, because I really don't know exactly what the law states)

There's a lot more to the story, but that's at least a summary of why the contract was signed. Personally, I think they should have all said "******* you", and walked away. But I guess facing unemployment in the post-9/11 era made that a more difficult choice. Mesa signing this contract not only screwed the pilots, but ended up screwing the regional industry as a whole. All succeeding contracts that were up for renewal had CEO's banging Mesa's contract on the table saying "Mesa does it for THIS!...we expect the same from you". The phrase (Mesa) "lowered the bar" speaks directly to this, as well as the animosity toward the pilots. And rightfully so.

One thing I know for sure is this: I don't think the pilots had any clue back then as to just how BAD this contract was going to turn out to be. Sure, it's spelled out in black-and-white (and that should be bad enough) but what really makes the contract suck are phrases such as "to the extent possible", and "at the company's discretion". Instead of concrete language, these phrases allow for the company to evolve the contract to their liking. And even though the pilots are expected to professionally honor the contract, management (and crew tracking, scheduling, payroll, etc) uses ploys such as the aforementioned phrases to continually violate the contract.

Having friends at other regionals, I know for sure that there is not the same type of management vs. pilot animosity/hatred (at least at some, such as CHQ, SkyWest, XJT). That is what, in my opinion, really sets Mesa apart (along with, obviously, the contract, beat-up airplanes, improper staffing, etc). Mesa pilots are trying to make changes and force the company to comply with the contract, and management views this stance as a hostile agenda. As such, along with violating the contract, they have resorted to punishing us with excessive JRA's, inefficent trip pairings, minimizing contractual days off and uncommutable lines...the list goes on and on to punish our QOL's. This has all contributed to extreme morale problems with all Mesa crewmembers, and attrition that even the likes of Mesa has never seen before.

In short (sorry for the rant...for those of you that continued to read this) Mesa is a horrible place to work right now. Period.

(SIDENOTE: for those reading this and asking "well, why did you go to Mesa in the first place", please read my previous posts )
EFIS COMP MON is offline  
Old 11-07-2006, 05:39 AM   #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Frozen Ronin's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: The goofy one in the left seat. CP to a small Mom&Pop Op.
Posts: 283
Default

I had a feeling this was going to be a fun thread......
Frozen Ronin is offline  
Old 11-07-2006, 07:06 AM   #8  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Airbii R
Posts: 391
Default

Good post EFIS. I hope the high attrition continues until management can no longer overlook the pay and working conditions, only then may they be forced to improve them or risk not being able to operate their schedule.

Surely management must (I guess should is more appropriate) realize that it costs much more to continually hire and train to replace those that are leaving than it would cost to just improve QOL and pay.
dundem is offline  
Old 11-07-2006, 07:51 AM   #9  
Prime Minister/Moderator
 
rickair7777's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 23,643
Default

Three points. Mesa sucks because...

1) They gave up a lot to get rid of freedom A. I give 'em credit for this but the reality is their MEC f*&^ed up and gave away too much because the courts almost certainly would have forced JO to integrate freedom eventually...it might have required some patience under difficult circumstances.

2) The management philosophy at mesa is to rape, pillage, plunder, lie, cheat, and steal. It has been that way for years and is ingrained in their culture. There is no easy or quick fix for this...I recall a couple west-pointers that got hired into management, but only lasted a few months because they could not stomach the crap. The only cure for this is a major economic catastrophy and subsequent top-to-bottom house-cleaning...getting fired by two codeshares should do the trick.

3) The old MEC was useless at best, but may have been worse than useless... The new MEC is spineless and has demonstrated their willingness to roll over for JO at every turn. I think they are lifers who are more concerned about growth and company survival than anything else. The pilot group has a lot of very junior people who are scared or ignorant or both. Also, since people with backbones often get fed up and leave within a year or two, mesa has more than their share of spineless wonders. Not to mention the MAPD gang, who would be unemployable outside of mesa...


There's no quick fix for mesa except to get rid of them...I'm kind of hoping they do it to themselves.
rickair7777 is offline  
Old 11-07-2006, 07:52 AM   #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 222
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dundem View Post
Surely management must (I guess should is more appropriate) realize that it costs much more to continually hire and train to replace those that are leaving than it would cost to just improve QOL and pay.
Unfortunately, that may not be the case. Your training cost is more or less subtracted from your first year pay. They don't care if you stay the second year and make more money, or leave and they replace you with someone who will incur a training expense but be paid less than you. The second year pay raise may not exactly equal the training expense but it is close.
sgrd0q is offline  
 
 
 

 
Post Reply
 



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Mesa teams up with Delta Gordon C Mesa Airlines 20 12-31-2015 03:43 PM
Hawaiian Air seeks to ground Mesa RockBottom Regional 18 09-17-2006 12:04 PM
Mesa Airlines... yea or nay? EagleEyeAngel Regional 47 03-21-2006 09:18 PM
Continental Airlines to Withdraw 69 Aircraft From ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. fosters Regional 18 12-31-2005 04:24 PM
Mesa Air uncertanties Sir James Regional 0 04-26-2005 01:57 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:38 AM.