Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301734)

Show me in the Delta pilots contract where it states "we conceed more large RJs to the lowest bidder". Better yet, tell me what pilot group has control over which regional is awarded flying. With your logic, it's APA's fault that Eagle lost flying to Skywest and it's UAL pilots fault that TSA lost flying to GoJet. Your argument doesn't hold water.

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1301733)

You need to also thank us, your ALPA brothers, for allowing our mainline jobs to be transferred to substandard airlines like Pinnacle, while mainline pilots got furloughed.

None of Pinnacle's flying is really Pinnacle's. All that flying is DAL/NWA mainline, never forget it. You are sitting where you are sitting because mainline jobs got transferred to your low bidding, "pay for training/Gulfstream hiring" airline. THat is it.<---It should have never been this way. Now the young have a taste for blood. And all of a sudden PCL is a high paying airline while GOJet is not :) News FLash: Both airlines are a piece of turd in terms of pay and rules.

I am all for the Pinnacle dudes getting on at Delta but stop with your arrogant drivel. We are all in this mess together.

TEN

PS. We all get fortunate and lucky. We should all help each other out. Pilot groups are not the enemy. We need to work with each other.

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1301747)

Read the old NWA contract, regional flying had to go to ALPA carriers.

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1301726)

I would have been ecstatic to get rid of every last outsourced RJ (or bring them over to mainline) if we could have.

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301713)

9e filed BK, & Delta provided DIP financing. Delta pilots and DALPA don't control where Delta management shifts their flying in the RJ shuffle game. That's not an option for us. I suppose it's American pilots fault for Eagle losing flying, or United pilots fault for TSA pilots losing flying. Obviously, we all control that.

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1301733)

You need to also thank us, your ALPA brothers, for allowing our mainline jobs to be transferred to substandard airlines like Pinnacle, while mainline pilots got furloughed.

None of Pinnacle's flying is really Pinnacle's. All that flying is DAL/NWA mainline, never forget it. You are sitting where you are sitting because mainline jobs got transferred to your low bidding, "pay for training/Gulfstream hiring" airline. THat is it.<---It should have never been this way. Now the young have a taste for blood. And all of a sudden PCL is a high paying airline while GOJet is not :) News FLash: Both airlines are a piece of turd in terms of pay and rules.

I am all for the Pinnacle dudes getting on at Delta but stop with your arrogant drivel. We are all in this mess together.

TEN

PS. We all get fortunate and lucky. We should all help each other out. Pilot groups are not the enemy. We need to work with each other.

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1301691)

What exactly should DALPA and Delta pilots have done to prevent this unfortunate situation? Should they have attempted to negotiate a guarantee of Pinnacle's everlasting viability? :confused:

I'm not aware of any contract in which mainline pilots have negotiated a say in who is chosen to do the outsourced flying. That would be ridiculous.

Originally Posted by djrogs03 (Post 1301745)

Whoa whoa whoa...what did you think was going to happen? Anyone who has done their homework over the last several years knows that the company with the lowest cost margin gets the airplanes. Where have the aircraft gone? To the Lowest bidders...where were the jobs lost...Comair and soon 9E (ALPA carriers) because of high costs. Just because it's not written in fine print on a contract doesn't mean it won't happen. Why not start a flow and give mainline guys an oppurtunity to have a place if crap hits the fan like CZ has? Keep ALPA pilots flying. It's business 101. Why give 76 airplanes to 9E or OH operating with 15+ year payscales when you can operate the same aircraft with guys at CZ and G7 at 5-6 year pay. As I mentioned before I don't blame any pilot group for the choices they make, and I don't blame a single pilot for a yes or no vote, because in reality a pilot makes a decision usually based on what's best for him and if he has one, his family. I'm all for mainline taking back flying...it is your flying. Period. My conceed statement was just saying that giving up larger airframes, because in reality, Delta has 76 seat payscales. Why not fly 76 aircraft there? Trust me I know it was a net loss in Regional seat feed...it will bump mainline flying in between 60-65% in the not so distant future...that's a good thing

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301749)

NWA no longer exists, & Delta no longer owns any regionals.

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301749)

NWA no longer exists, & Delta no longer owns any regionals.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301757)

The "RJ shuffle game" itself is a direct result of Delta pilots decisiosn. Granted, there was alot more at stake in your latest contract.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301757)

Do any of you really, truly believe you can get remove all regional flying? Because that's the way alot of you talk. It's not reality, unless, of course, you want to take huge wage concessions and bring DCI flying onboard.

Originally Posted by BlueMoon (Post 1301759)

It got transferred to "a low bidding airline" because you (the majority of mainline pilots) voted to allow it. Never forget that

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301765)

Delta no longer owns any regionals because your last contract sealed their demise. I think that's the point we're talking about in the first place (what DALPA could and should have done).

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301748)

Thank you for allowing mainline jobs being transferred to regionals and thank you for taking them away? And then add, we should all help each other out.You should have never had those jobs to begin with

What point are you trying to make? Because it sure as heck sounds like, you, DAL mainline, will do what you want for yourselves and screw the rest of us.It is all about me right now. You grew and prospered while over 2000 high paying mainline jobs were lost

The numbers of pilots that mainline has ****ed off and continue to **** off, does not bode well for you. Remember, you should thank mainline for giving you all this growth in the last decade:instead of threatening them. You dont think I am angry at the pimply face RJ fo that took my high paying job? I am livid, but it is ti,e to move onAnd the fact that they are now non-union, even makes it worse. Those guys won't walk a picket line on your behalf. And PCL guys will? Nice! Comair too?<---We saw what Lawson did!

And as you lose market share to competitors and you lose more and more leverage (because guess what, as the regionals shrink, so does your leverage in that area), the future does not look so bright.

Originally Posted by Will (Post 1301779)

I'll speak for the rational pilots at 9E. Delta pilots had nothing to do what is going on here. Delta management Yes, not Delta pilots.

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301774)

Explain to me how the latest contract had any influence on Delta owning regionals. Mesaba was sold before the latest Sec 6. Compass was sold before the latest Sec 6. ASA was sold before the latest Sec 6. Give me an example of a mainline pilot group who contractually dictates management to own regionals or dictate which regional the flying goes to.

If you guys think this stuff is so easy, take a look at UAL & Us Air. I think you imagine negotiations as pilot's walking in and slamming their fists down demanding everything. It doesn't work. APA tried it years ago. What did it get them? Bankruptcy. We live in reality, not fantasy. One day you guys will learn that.

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1301776)

Comair too?<---We saw what Lawson did!


Contrary to what you believe, the future does look bright. I hope you have a chance to become a Mainline pilot one day. You will see what I mean. Fly safe.

TEN

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301787)

Hah, I knew this discussion wouldn't go without a Lawson reference.

You're talking about the the lowly MEC man who, with just the stroke of a pen, brought thousands of pilots to their knees. That man wields some power, I must say.

I sure hope it is bright for you. Sitting in the right seat for 20 years doesn't entice me, however.

Originally Posted by Mesabah (Post 1301783)

You paraphrased exactly what our management at 9E told us why we are in this situation.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301765)

I think that's the point we're talking about in the first place (what DALPA could and should have done).

Originally Posted by TenYearsGone (Post 1301776)

Contrary to what you believe, the future does look bright. I hope you have a chance to become a Mainline pilot one day. You will see what I mean. Fly safe.

TEN

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 1301820)

I don't know of any Delta/NWA pilot who has involuntarily sat in the right seat for 20 years.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301839)

I really hope you'r right. Despite my hard line stance, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301839)

I really hope you'r right. Despite my hard line stance, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1301840)

What if that right seat pays 50% more than a topped out regional captain? (because it does)

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301843)

Pay isn't everything. And all that would mean is that there is no movement. Not a place I would want to be, personal preference.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301843)

Pay isn't everything. And all that would mean is that there is no movement. Not a place I would want to be, personal preference.

Originally Posted by Purple Drank (Post 1301837)

And what was that?

I'm astounded that you think mainline pilots should have given up anything to further a DCI company's viability.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301850)

It's not company viability that I am referering to. Thousands of ALPA jobs would be more accurate.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301843)

Pay isn't everything. And all that would mean is that there is no movement. Not a place I would want to be, personal preference.

Originally Posted by UCLAbruins (Post 1301629)

The commuters that have the Lowest labor costs and can agree to contracts that greatly benefit the majors will be around for a while

The commuters that don't agree to concessions but instead choose to offer their pilots a "pilot career", with decent pay and benefits won't be able to survive.

Truly a race to the bottom

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 1301852)

Not correct. Those in the right seat for 20 years choose to be there because they get so much time off and make as much or more than captains.

Originally Posted by meesq (Post 1301765)

Delta no longer owns any regionals because your last contract sealed their demise. I think that's the point we're talking about in the first place (what DALPA could and should have done).

Originally Posted by todd1200 (Post 1301919)

How can you blame Delta pilots for wanting to fly Delta pax? I'm sorry to see Pinnacle guys put in this type of situation, but blaming anyone other than Pinnacle Mgmt. and Delta Mgmt. is misguided and unproductive.