it's even more fun when you are at Green Mill the night before and your students are siting at the table next to you and bashing you the whole time before they even meet you or know who you are ;)

Oh man! You could have some serious fun with them!!! :D

how do you think I got free beer that night? ;) All in good fun of course ;)

It's always in good fun! :D

And remember this lie my pants off under oath a$$clown:

http://m3.licdn.com/mpr/pub/image-lE...n-anderson.jpg

Shawn Anderson, Delta’s Vice President of Delta Connection, gave this testimony in his November 1, 2006 trial Declaration:

- 16 -

"Moreover, Delta may place into service additional large 70-seat regional jets–and even larger RJs with up to 76 seats. Delta would have to consider placing these new aircraft at Comair’s competitors and “grow” the competitors instead of placing such valuable assets at Comair where they would produce less profit."

". . . If Comair does not obtain the labor cost reductions it seeks, then its cost structure will not be competitive with the other Delta Connection carriers. In this industry, and at this time, having an uncompetitive cost structure will mean that Comair will have no opportunity for growth, and, indeed, will mean that Comair cannot survive as a viable regional airline. Simply put, unless Comair can reduce its controllable costs to competitive levels, it does not make business sense to continue Comair flying for Delta."

". . . If Comair can restructure itself so that its controllable costs are competitive, Delta should be able to increase, rather than decrease, the flying it contracts to Comair. This would mean that Comair would have an opportunity to grow, rather than shrink. With growth would come new job opportunities, and reduced unit costs, as more junior employees are added, and reduced unit overhead
costs as the same facilities and overhead could be used to perform more flying."

". . . I am familiar with Comair’s restructuring plans, including its plan to reduce its controllable costs–both labor and non-labor. If Comair is able to restructure in accordance with its restructuring plans, I believe that Comair will be able to perform Delta Connection flying at a competitive price."

"Accordingly, I believe that the labor cost reductions in Comair’s business plan are necessary–indeed, essential–to Comair’s successful restructuring."

http://www.nysb.uscourts.gov/opinion...64_opinion.pdf

Awesome!!! All the way!

Boomer!!! You are the champ! I would almost give much love to your gold champ!!!!

Just when you thought your costs were finally competitive...

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2010-09-01-delta-comair-cuts_N.htm






...Comair is one of the most profitable regional carriers in the business, at least according to data the airline submitted to the federal Transportation Department earlier this year. In the first quarter of 2010, Comair made about $9 million in operating profit, with an 8.4% operating margin – tops among large regional carriers.

But company officials have long said the federal data can be misleading because they do not include debt payments and that Comair does not make its money from ticket revenues but rather from its contract with parent Delta based on how many hours it flies. Comair also had a loss in the fourth quarter of 2009, although it did have an operational profit margin of 16.2% in the second quarter of 2009.

Bendoraitis said in the memo, however, that the airline is not competitive with costs that he said are 20% higher than its competitors.

"Our current cost structure … does not enable us to be competitive in the current industry environment," he wrote. "To secure our future, we need to demonstrate our ability to operate as a standalone entity. We must be able to earn a profit while reducing our operating costs to what the market is willing to pay for our services."

The planes that are being removed by Delta are less efficient 50-seaters, and the cuts will leave Comair with about 44 planes total – mostly 70- and 76-seaters. The planes will be retired and perhaps sold for parts or to other airlines, or returned to their owners if they are on a lease arrangement.



So, to review the DCI playbook:

• Park 50s, saying they're inefficient
• Ask employees for concessions to "keep remainder of fleet intact"
• When 50s are gone, discover that 70/76-seat fleet is "too small" to be economically feasible
• Redistribute 70/76-seat aircraft to other carriers in exchange for parking 50s.

And that is why I will vote no on a concessionary TA.

Let us die with our boots on.

The Colgan and Mesaba purchases are going to go down in history as some of the stupidest transactions in history. However, this is looking at from our own narrow view as employees. I suspect that there was more going on below the surface, and DAL has been in on this for a long time. I am not angry, because I realize that it's business and you have to be dispassionate as a CEO in order to discharge your duties to the shareholders.
The bottom-line for the airlines is transitioning from the current business model and onto another one that is profitable. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in the painful transition period and the handwriting is on the wall about what and how many jobs (of high pay/QOL) will be left when the dust finally settles.
It is reasonable to assume that what the airlines look like in 5 years is going to be much different than it is today. I think we will see an overall reduction in capacity and airframes at the regional level, more flying of larger airplanes, but less total airframes at the legacy carriers. This is going to translate into more full airplanes flying to less cities and less often. EAS is going to be eliminated as a line item in the federal budget and this will open the door for some entrepreneurs to come in and serve markets with the right airplane, frequency and price.
I am not saying that any of the above is good for the overall health of the piloting career, but it is just a theory. The next evolution is going to be development of a man-monitored UAV grid for air transportation. This is also going to be painful, but how many of you have ever had a ride on a train with no one driving?

Other than at the airport or someplace similar, are there any of these trains out there?

The ones at the airports are on fixed tracks and just go around in a circle. Completely different phenomenon and 2 dimensional.

I have never been on a train with no one driving. I have been on short monorails (the kind at DisneyLand) with no one driving but never a train that actually takes people a long distance. The more appropriate question, how many have ever been in a car with no one driving?

Multiply that by 10 and i'd agree, otherwise about the only change you'll see in 5 years is joint ventures, mergers, possibly cabotage or federally sponsored training "pipelines".

And maybe age 70.:rolleyes:

Also the unmanned trains on tracks you mentioned and the auto car of the future both have something airplanes do not: a safe place to stop when the electricals go kaput.

FYI even the monorails at Disney are driven, not automated. They're also staffed by guys that get paid extra because they're classified as "transportation."

Sucky thing is we can't ride up front on the monorails anymore because some guy should have called in fatigued one night and ran into the monorail in front of him....

Thank you.....

Bingo, the best thing we could do at this point is shutdown overnight and give Delta a couple months of oh crap scramble trying to implement their plan ahead of schedule.

That's when there's only one train on the tracks.

Add a second train, and you have to add two drivers (one each train).

It's sickening to see management use the same dirty tricks and BK laws to screw employees. This whole thing sucks, and hopefully the pilots can get other better opportunities.

Burn it down, eh!

You want to burn down the entity that put food on your table for the time you worked there...and you just want to burn it down?

How about thousands more who work there: airlines are NOT all about pilots...you know!

But, if weren't for arrogance, you wouldn't even know what to reply.

The very first two airplanes (CRJ-900s) we're losing this month are going to ExpressJet, not GoJets. And I'm pretty sure the last growth announcements have come from ExpressJet, SkyWest, and Compass pooling up newhires for what I'm sure will be growth on their end later next year.

I think it so ironic that an airline (Pinnacle) that was built on folks that paid their way into a job and had the lowest wages for over a decade can give grief to any other carrier. It is what it is. Placing blame on another carrier for your own company's poor leadership, management, and (quite frankly) god-awful hiring practices is ridiculous.

Good luck to all.

Vectored thrust, duh...

I'm not surprised by the latest announcement, by none of it.

Earlier this year Delta announced that the CRJ200 fleet was being reduced to 125 airframes. We have 140. There is no way Pinnacle was keeping all 140 nor should anyone expect us to have most of the 125 remaining. It won't happen. If we end up keeping 70 I'd br really surprised.

I find it really funny (strange) that our 'OWNED' fleet of 900's are the ones being reduced. By getting rid of them gives Delta not only more control but the cash from lease payments. From the XJ/NWA bankruptcy it was shown that lease payments to the mainline carrier were way more than if we had just bought the planes ourselves.

So between the loss of the ATL 900's and some undisclosed numbers of 200's, I suspect we'll end up with about 100 aircraft when the dust settles. I suspect we will get 20-25 of the new 900's.

I wonder why Delta even cares what any of us makes. Delta awards a contract. Take it or leave it. I have no idea what my lawn service pays the guy driving the mower.

I believe the Delta TA screwed us. I have no claim to any size aircraft. My company bids on them and I fly them. I'm not the enemy. However when the TA included rates for crj900's and erj175's you said to my company what I should make. That hurt.

Personally I think we should put 777, 380, 747, 787, etc rates in our contract. Why not? There's no way we will ever get them is there? Just like you have no intention of getting 76 seat aircraft. I wonder if delta management would hold it over your heads at a regional airline is offering to fly a 777 for $100.

I don't see us going out of business. I do see us getting smaller. It may be down to 41 900's. We need a fair contract with a return on investment for any cuts taken. Anything else we really need to let someone else do the work.

Delta's contracts have had RJ rates for years.

Are you a pinnacle lifer? If not, what you propose is idiotic.

If so, and you're advocating for undercutting mainline rates...well, I have zero sympathy for you. Good luck

Here's the problem with your argument.

Pinnacle pilots current CRJ900 rates

20 yr CA $106
20 yr FO $45
1 yr FO $26

Current Delta CRJ900 rates

12 yr CA $121
12 yr FO $82
1 yr FO $60


So Delta rates already smoke Pinnacle rates. And your companies BK was NOT caused by Delta pilots. It was caused by your companies management. Delta pilots were hosed by management during their BK too. That's why your company has those shiny CRJ900's. So instead of kicking and screaming & throwing out threats, man up and place the blame where it belongs....Pinnacle management. What is happening to Pinnacle employees sucks. But it's not anyone's fault except 9e management.

http://cdn.motinetwork.net/demotivat...1256947298.jpg

I really don't think Pinnacle needs for pilots to take pay cuts. In the next couple of years there is going to be huge attrition. Pinnacle is going to have plenty of junior Captains and F/O's. Bottom of the pay scale. If they can't stay in business with those rates then maybe it isn't labor costs and it's poor management. $45 top rate for f/o's is low as it is. $45,000 tops for flying a 90 seat jet? All the time on the road, in crappy hotels...where do you draw the line? $30? $25? $15?

Oh yea, and giant parachutes too.

Comair guys at GoJet? Oh, the irony...

Glad you guys were able to land on your feet at least...

The main reason for Pinnacle to have pay cuts to to reduce payments to ALL DCI carriers. Delta repays Pilot expense up to the AVERAGE of the DCI carriers. By reducing Pinnacle pay the average goes down and all DCI carriers get less. This puts pressure on those in section 6 negotiations for their airline to be "competitive". A Pinnacle reduction will fuel the race to the bottom.

FYI, Delta told Comair we had too many 50 seaters. They told us we were going to park 50s until our fleet was down to 44 aircraft - mostly 700/900s.

18 months later, just as we passed the 50 airplane mark on our way to 44, Delta announced that we would not be efficient with just 44 aircraft, and that they were shutting us down.

On the other hand, Compass had a fleet of 36 aircraft for years. Of course they don't have 15-year Captains either.

Does the UAL TA reduce the overall regional aircraft?

I can see it now... and RyanAir would have advertisements on em...

They basically cut and pasted Delta's scope and a year behind but a cut and paste of the pay rates too.

Apparently, getting a contract that put us in line with other DCI carriers like Skywest and ASA (or, well, I guess they're the same but with different contracts now?!?) broke the bank and sent us into bankruptcy. At that point, I'd say it's all mis-management. If you can't operate your business with the same costs as your competitor, you need to look in the mirror.....

It is because of all the training costs. Management screwed up allowing us to bid what ever aircraft we could hold as soon as the SLI was complete. This sent i think around 1/3 of the pilots into long term training. Then add in that we lost all of the US airway Saabs that created downgrades and displacements. This burned through the cash 9e had and created a cash flow problem. Then we lost all of colgans flying plus now the de-fence training for XJ pilots sending another large group of pilots to training. The training department is at max capacity so there are tons of pilots sitting at home doing nothing. If we can make it out of this 9e will be making a profit. The only question is does Delta want us. I hope that Spanjers is planning on looking for flying for other Majors so Delta does not have so much control over us.

Delta management plunked down that bankruptcy financing, and therefore may be able to prevent its competitors from accessing Pinnacle's lift.

They went further than that and nuked almost all possibilities of Pinnacle flying for other companies.... complete with ensuring they pull down all the Colgan flying.

Opening up cross training to Colgan's fleet in the standard Pinnacle manner of executing it the worst possible way is what put 9E in bankruptcy. I don't see any flying for other airlines in 9E's future for a very long time.

It wasn't management. It was your own JCBA. I was very vocal about this very topic, mainly because the loss of the XJ Saab fleet meant 9E vacancies would be filled with them, and cause some displacements of 9E pilots. I took my concern to several union reps, and all said the same thing, that with this JCBA, we force the company to have a company-wide bid, and bid whatever you want! It made zero sense. You had pilots from all 3 certificates that wanted to jump across all 3 airlines, and management was forced to allow it. What should have happened is that movement across all 3 airlines should have been on hold, and allowed only movement within each own airline, until a joined fenced operation was fully functioning. The way it happened, 9E Corp was allowing all 3 pilot groups to jump across all 3 airlines as soon as the JCBA came out, and well before any fenced operations even started. Ultimately, the Mesaba group ran the new union. They made a serious push to make sure CS would lose and TW would become the new MEC Chairman. And since Mesaba was already wearing the pants in the whole situation, they couldn't afford to have no movement across the other two airlines when their Saabs were parked. They used the provisions they put in the JCBA to force the company to allow their pilots to bid across ASAP.

So in that regards, it wasn't management that allowed that to happen, it was the union and the JCBA.


Didn't lose it. Menke mentioned it was a voluntary draw down to staff the other bases and other fleets. This cash was something Delta did not want to pay in training costs. And why should they pay for US Air Express pilots' training? They reneged on those costs, and it created a cash flow problem.

I believe that the US flying was going away once the slot swap was done they just made it happen faster. I do agree that the Union should have helped out at the beginning with training events how ever it was the responsibility of management at the time the JCBA was signed to do their due diligence.

What i meant for looking for other flying was if we get out of BK. Once/IF we emerge I believe we are able to fly for anybody unless Delta Buys us.