FO upgrade opportunities? After 81 airplanes? That's 850 pilots tops. 2,400 right now. Where will those 1,400 pilots get their upgrade chance on 81 airplanes? A Pinnacle FO right now will not be upgrading anytime soon even with this interview flow.

In fact, a Pinnacle FO would be better off saying screw this TA, leave Pinnacle, join another airline, and get to Delta at least 3 times sooner.

This Delta interview carrot is worthless for any Pinnacle FO. If you can't see that...

Yea we get it. Just ****. You don't work here anymore. Nobody cares about your opinion.

81 airplanes. That means in the end state, every single FO on the 81 airplanes would already have been a Captain. The FOs who have never been Captain will be furloughed or gone. How do you expect any upgrades for a 9E FO who has never seen the left seat yet? That number is at 6 years now. It is unrealistic to see a 9E FO to now expect an upgrade with only 81 airplanes. Even with the Delta interview, it would take way too long to even come near


And,

Note the fleet guarantee of 81 airplanes only goes for duration of contract + 6 months.

So 7 years and 6 months from now, those 81 planes could be given out to the next cheaper carrier. Do you think any FO now who is not a Captain can risk this 7.5 year wait to see what happens?

I'm just saying. The FOs deserve better than this.

It's important for Pinnacle pilots to remember that management at the regional airlines who will be hiring en masse over the next few years will be using your concessionary "peer group" rates in pilot CBA negotiations and they will do everything they can to match whatever rates and work rules you guys agree to in order to be "competitive."

It is very likely that many of you will have to live with the concessions to which you agree at your next airline.

Think about that when you vote.

I have no skin in this game and you guys have to do what it best for yourselves. But just get all the facts and run all the scenarios. The one above is perhaps the closest to reality you will see.

Most of you will be out of a job no matter what. In the end, you have to ask yourself, how many will actually ever come up for that "guaranteed interview".

as opposed to worse ones that could be imposed? funny how many are "hold the line" until it happens at their airline.

and no, that doesn't mean I'm voting one way or another until I read the whole thing.

Another slap in the face for FOs for this Delta interview is that not only do you need Captain time, but you can't have a training freeze. Isn't upgrade training a freeze as a new captain? Yikes. So FOs basically have to upgrade and get their freeze over (12 mos?).

how many flows have there ever been where for all practical purposes you did not have to be a captain?

They would be better off saying yes, taking the money and getting furloughed.

1.) Keep your job until Fall.
2.) Get a 2k-6k bonus.
3.) Get your vax paid out.
4.) Get your sick time paid out.
5.) Get Delta travel benefits for 2 years.
6.) Get your ATP and Type paid for by Pinnacle.
7.) Get 3 months of pay after furlough
8.) Health care for 3 months.

So you get what above or keep your current job for less than a year, let the company shut down, have no benefits at all and be on the street with 2000 other guys that are a lot more qualified than you, fighting for a job.

Do the math.

stop using logic man, vote with fear and emotion!:D

Fixed it for you.

My money is on 9E folding.

I've flown VA and happen to think they're product is quite good. I hope they succeed.

In theory yes, but again, use Comair as an example. In order to keep 9E planes flying until they can shut down there would probably be a similar deal offered just to keep the planes flying through summer. Or this could all be a bluff by Delta. They obviously want 9E to stick around or they wouldn't have even bothered to send negotiators.

Flows have been limited. Eagle, ExpressJet, Mesaba, and Compass. I can't think of any other true, pure flows. But in those flow situations, at the time it was signed, the regional itself was growing tremendously. Lots of RJs coming back in those times. Back then, it was reasonable to expect a Captain requirement to flow up.

Now, 81 planes. All FOs have to upgrade on 81 planes. 850 total needed out of 2,400. Even once those 1,300 FOs upgrade, they then have a training freeze and do not qualify for the Delta program until they are off the freeze.

Realisitically, assuming all this pans out and 81 planes stay and Delta does the interview flow as planned, no FO will see Delta until 2020 at the earliest. Just do the math. Training upgrade freeze is 12 mos minimum, so take a year on top of the first time a FO touches the left seat.

Any FO at 9E would be better off going to another airline (LCC, regional) and getting a few years there and then applying to Delta.

yeah cause Pride is gonna earn you an extra 20k next year. Oh wait I know.....when a Pinnacle guy is a junior guy at his next airline, I'm sure the others at his new airline will allow him to upgrade out of order for holding the line in the name of pride. Pride don't mean crap in this industry, it's all me me me.

This has nothing to do with that. This has to do with the "we'll vote for it to give us time to get out of here" mentality. What you agree to will affect what you "escape" to...

...without the longevity.

It's not about others....it's about you.

Voting "no" to these rates would not make things worse....it would show other morally bankrupt regional airline managements and DELTA, US AIRWAYS, AMERICAN, and UNITED that regional airline pilots are sick of being the new permanent "B scale" employees. It has the potential to change the way they do business and make this a better career for all.

....and that includes you.

Until a FO goes to another regional, only to hear them say they have to match the new Pinnacle wages or risk losing aircraft, which will be the next Delta threat in the DCI war games.

You're absolutely right. As long as you know that you are just a DL puppet and the repercussions will follow you throughout your career. Short term, are you better off, yup. (I'm assuming you're senior.) And I suppose that's all that matters right now.
When you're looking for another job in a few years and see the pay and benes at the next regional you're looking at (before your number has come up for a guaranteed interview or you didn't get hired) then you might have a different reaction.

Only the guys furloughed in 2013, and that's 150.

In 2014 and beyond it's 1 month of pay after furlough.




Enhanced Furlough Pay. Benefit Eligible Pilots with a 2013 furlough start date will receive three (3) months of minimum guarantee at the rate that was applicable to the Benefit Eligible Pilot during the month prior to the pilot’s effective date of furlough. Benefit Eligible Pilots with a 2014 or later furlough start date will receive one (1) month of minimum guarantee at the rate that was applicable to the Benefit Eligible Pilot during the month prior to the pilot's effective date of furlough. The payment shall be made at the time and subject to the conditions described in Section 3.c.viii.

Wait a minute...Speaking of wages...Aren't you flying 119-149 passengers around for $44 an hour?

Furthermore, if you want to do the math. You know that Delta DCI is all about average pay rates right? So lets say Pinnacle shuts down, whats the average DCI carrier pilot pay? Now, add Pinnacle back in with the current TA rates. What do you come up with?

You'll see that average rate without Pinnacle the DCI rate is LOWER than the average DCI rate WITH Pinnacle's current TA rates.

Do you see where this is going? Either way its a lose lose situation for other DCI's. Its worse for other DCI's if Pinnacle didn't exist.

Based on what I've read, if I were still at 9E, I'd be voting "no." I'd be one of the ones that "had" been a CA, so I'd be okay on the flow/interview/whatever. I'd be looking at downgrade next year to an FO payrate and a commute that would have me making less and spending less time at home than working as a ride operator at Disney would. Then I'd be furloughed about a year later and only get a month of "severance" for my trouble.

Yeah, no thanks. Glad I'm out.

Foolish Pride? How about logical thinking. Delta is in the business of making money if they wanted to pay you what you "DESERVE" they would fly the RJ's by Delta Pilots. If you really wanted to show how PROUD you are, you should also quit your jobs at the Regional Airlines and only work for the MAJOR airlines out there that don't offer the B Scale. All this talk of shutting Pinnacle Down hurts only labor. You think upper management is worried. Not one bit they will go elsewhere and unlike the pilots will not start at the bottom. This is a terrible position Pinnacle Pilots are in but its the reality of the industry.

Good thing your voting based on things you've read on the internet!

You aren't dating that french super model are you? The one you met on the internet? :D

Kellwolf you are not here so ****. Easy comment to write when you don't work here.

Still have tons of friends over there, so I'm paying attention. I'm only a month removed, guys. If you don't like my opinion, that's cool. Awesome thing about the internet, though. Everyone gets to have one.

First year pay does suck, no denying that.

Spirit - $38.50/hr

American - 35

Hawaiian - 36

US Air - 42

Allegiant - 41

But the war is never really waged on first year wages, those are usually the first things sold out in negotiations.

Well we have found the next ShyGuy....move along already...we don't tell you what we would do if we were at Blue.

like button

Here's who won't go away, arbitrator Bloch:

setting forth by the appropriate Association parties of an expedited process to obtain direction from Arbitrator Richard I. Bloch on the application of his award to the circumstances at Pinnacle in which CRJ-900 aircraft are being removed and added to the fleet and all CRJ-200 aircraft are being removed from the fleet. This process must request Arbitrator Bloch issue direction within 30 days following ratification of the collective bargaining agreement,

Like I said. Have lots of friends there, therefore it (indirectly) affects me. You are more than welcome to your opinion on things over here at Blue. If you can't handle people having opposing opinions, I highly suggest turning off the computer, walking away and living in a cave.

Kellwolf your excuse is the lamest excuse I have heard in a long time. I have friends there. You must have some pretty dumb friends if you have to think for them. If you were a good friend you would say take the 6-26K and quit. Shutting this place down and getting zero is great advice. Maybe bad judgement pays your bills, most banks prefer money.

tell your bank you have no money due to your pride. I'm sure they will forgive the rest of your car/mortgage payments out of principle :)

Or man-up and stand your ground. If you want to have a worthwhile career flying airplanes maybe it is time to make a decision that is long-term and looks longer than 6 months down the line. That is why we are in this mess in the first place, management couldn't see past 6 months. If pilots kept rolling over every time management comes asking for money this career will only get worse. Do you want to be 65 flying a 787 for 55K a year still struggling to pay your bills?

while you are looking ahead let me know how that big fat goose egg ZERO for recency of experience looks to a computer who grades your app....

Why don't you offer to work for free then, the company would love to retain your services so you can maintain currency. Anyone with a heartbeat can get a job right now flying airplanes. If you have the time you will get a job, it doesn't matter if you have 500 hours the last 6 months or .5 hours. Eagle will even give you a 5K bonus, but hey, if you want to sell your soul to stay current, you get your one vote.

If you're in the junior 60%, you're going to have that anyways...

Oh wow. So even if you do leave to wait for your number to be called for the Delta interview, you can't even work at legacies/LCCs.

Yep.

Looking at the interview process, it looks like it's more of an attempt to make sure people behave while pinnacle is being wound down.

Notice how easy it is for them to get out of the 81 CRJ 900s, too.

Why would we be wound down at those rates, this TA solves the longevity problem and undercuts every other regional. If anything we will be used as whipsaw bait.