If you need to MAN UP or SHOW SOME PRIDE or any other catch phrase the author usually doesn't have a logical argument to follow. They are appealing to the emotional part of you. This decision should be one based on careful evaluation of the facts with a reasonable guesstimate of your future situation based on future and past indicators. I cant stress enough that voting yes doesn't mean 1500 pilots will be furloughed. That would mean 0 attrition and no change in the rest rules.

80 knots you don't have a dog in this fight so please mind your manners and leave.

Of course he does, look at the bridge agreement. I hope 80kts is on the hiring board.

LOL wouldnt that be funny

This new contract will most definitely be used as the new ruler to measure the competitions cost structure. This is where Delta will take things and they can because any Regional that fights against it will see their flying not renewed.

You'll be wholly owned at the end of this, right?

I can't see how anyone is even beginning to think about voting yes for this.

Oh man... that would not be pretty with some of the real crazies that I flew with show up in the interviews.

I bet those junior FO's make it to Delta before you ever do. :eek:

I can't think of one advantage to vote NO. People keep talking about he emotional reasons to vote NO I am still waiting for a compelling reason. Even if you are the last guy on the seniority list YES with money in your pocket on the way out the door seems better than not getting that money especially since your pay rates are changing much anyway.

Unfortunately, there are already regionals working under a TA like this, we are being asked to meet them. I don't see anyway around that, we are contract labor, you either meet what others are offering or go out of business. Money we are not making, is money mainline is making.

The only way to fix this is to have mainline pilots take back scope, that is the only way to have pricing power.

2 years pass benefits, at what priority?

And is it correct that its only 1 month pay/bennies if your furlough comes in 2014?

Max pay tops out at 87/38 (ca/fo), but do downgrades start over at year 1 CA when they re-upgrade as rumored prior?

Sounds like one expensive interview.

Personal vendetta much, 1067?

Delta took back a bunch of scope and this is still happening. As long as kids are lining up to fill the classes, the regionals will always pay low wages. Another way to fix this is for pilots to not take regional jobs and then and only then the wages might go up.

Not at all Clamp. This guy has been spouting off and taking down of his former co workers while at the same time we all know who he is. I'd just be surprised to see him get on at Delta. I don't know him so I have nothing personal against him. I just think he is one of the bigger tools out there who take every opportunity to lurk and remind his former 9E Brothers how stupid he thinks they are for still being 9E pilots.

I agree, deliberately sabotaging this TA by voting no, will in effect hurt many thousands of people in this company. This is a very tough and difficult situation we find ourselves in. Most of the people that want this Company to burn down doesn't even work here!!
I guess what I'm trying to say is, are you going to hurt other people in this company just so you can "stick it to the man". Who by the way doesn't, nor has he ever, given a hoot about you or your family.
They will do just fine with their golden parachute. How about you?
Can you say the same? The attitude, " that I'm voting no cause I didn't get my way and screw everyone else" is so selfish I don't know where to begin. I'm glad you weren't with me in Afghanistan with that kind of attitude. You talk about being dealt a crap sandwich. Go there, and when and if you come back tell me how bad you got it then. I promise you, your perspective on life will change dramatically.
Pride comes before the fall.
Rant over. Peace.

Some scope was taken back, but DCI will still have 400 or so airplanes when all is said and done. That's not enough to have an effect on regional wages. Had we been able to get the 900 back at mainline, then that would have gotten closer to a critical mass.

Consider this for a moment:

Delta WANTS to hire everyone eligible for the SSP (Streamlined Selection Process).

Why?

For there to be a SSP, the TA must pass. Presumably the folks most likely to vote for the TA would be eligible for SSP. So, Delta hires the SSP folks insuring the most junior (and most vulnerable to furlough) pilots have a track record of accepting concessionary agreements.

The next time Delta negotiates a contract, management rattles the fear saber a little harder knowing these SSP are more likely to knuckle under. Management will have greater confidence in negotiations, and will be less willing to compromise. So, either it takes longer to ratify a new contract (saving money as pilots work under old pay rates), or the new compensation package is smaller.



You know, this may be the first time I have ever said, "Wow, management, that's brilliant."

I never blamed it on mainline when I was at the regionals and I don't now either. It's an easy scape goat to say it's up to mainline to fix it. I say pilots shouldn't get into an industry that has become so cut throat in racing to the bottom. No one complained about the wages when we entered the industry and the pay was no where close to as high as it is now. It's about as invalid as a chicken or the egg debate to say that "only mainline pilots" can fix the mess that has become the regional airline. I wouldn't pursue the career if I was just starting out. Problem is there are still tons of pilots schools with SJS students who can't wait to fly the mighty RJ's. I say that is the problem.

Somewhat true, but even more people are lining up to work at Delta then at a regional, and Delta has decent rates. Actually, if the union allowed it, people would probably outright buy Delta seniority numbers. The reason you have regional flying is so legacy airlines are NOT competing with each other over qualified applicants. If everyone quit working at the regionals you would see ab initio programs or the like spring up; Anything to create a pool of applicants to draw from.

Salaries only get big at the majors when they have to attract pilots from other well paying careers. This is where the true savings of regionals come from.

Delta1067, I've just talked about the merits of this TA and how there isn't much incentive for a lot of guys to pass this. I don't think anyone is stupid, people have been trying to get out of 9E for quite some time now. This topic is about the merits of a TA.

Great idea! Because we all know how many check haulers with dripping wet ATPs get hired at the mainlines. :rolleyes:

No kidding...

I guess you are not reading your own posts then because you outlined a great reason to not vote yes:

Before deciding how to vote, take a look at what this TA would do to your unemployment benefits. In Texas for example, most folks will lose about $100/week. See for yourself:

https://services.twc.state.tx.us/UBS...tsEstimator.do

I never blamed it on mainline when I was at the regionals and I don't now either. It's an easy scape goat to say it's up to mainline to fix it. I say pilots shouldn't get into an industry that has become so cut throat in racing to the bottom. No one complained about the wages when we entered the industry and the pay was no where close to as high as it is now. It's about as invalid as a chicken or the egg debate to say that "only mainline pilots" can fix the mess that has become the regional airline. I wouldn't pursue the career if I was just starting out. Problem is there are still tons of pilots schools with SJS students who can't wait to fly the mighty RJ's. I say that is the problem. The bottom line is the well was poisioned a long time ago and there is really no fixing it.

You would easily make that up in the severance package/bankruptcy claim payout.

I can't believe that no one has mentioned the poor special case Delta hires. Sounds like this flow interview agreement would screw them over hard. Let's have a moment of silence...

If it has Delta paint on the side, only Delta pilots have a say it where that goes. It is your flying that is being outsourced, not ours. Labor law once protected union brand monopolies, but those were given up willingly by the union for pay increases or bargaining chips to avoid larger pay cuts. It was a huge mistake.

I'm not blaming any pilots (except for those evaluating resume's or on hiring boards who pass over anyone without regional experience). The reality is getting a resume past the circular file almost requires regional experience.

I dont think the pilots at Pinnacle need your opinion on how to vote, or how good or bad the TA is. We all know this TA sucks, just let it go. Why are you even giving your opinion on a TA that doesn't even matter to you? How many post have you made giving your opinion about the Delta or United TA?

Can't people have an opinion on it? I was never at Delta or United, and I didn't know where they are coming from, what internal struggles they have. But it seems to me that their TAs are pretty good, and for the industry it's a step in the right direction.

I would not tell you how to vote, that is each and everyone's own personal decision. I have friends there, and there are a lot of good people who have a tough decision to make. I've said it before, I wish the best for the people there. I'm still hoping this industry turns around for the better, especially with the Age 65 rule finally forcing retirements.

^^^^^^^^^^^

Just wanted to make sure this got quoted again. I can't vote on your TA, but I can do my best to prevent you from selling us out too.

Who's thining for them? I'm posting my opinion on an open internet forum. If you don't like it, there's a neat feature called "ignore." You won't hurt my feelings.

When I was there, I had a line in the sand that I had drawn that if the company asked us to go below that in bankruptcy, I was out. There are other jobs outside of aviation. I'd even be able to sleep in my own bed every night and not have to chew my nails wondering if I would get to/from work on time because there weer 4 Delta pilots ahead of me and a couple of rampers' parents. This simply goes way below that line. I could get a job outside of aviation locally, make the same amount of money I would be making (or more in some cases) as a 9E FO commuting. Aviation's a great biz, but it's not the ONLY business. Dumb friends are the ones with no plan B.....

The problem is that this TA matters and effects a lot more pilots then just those at 9e. If this TA passes it has the potential to negatively effect most pilot groups throughout the industry. If passed, it will put significant downward pressure on the rest of us in negotiations or soon to be. Therefore how you guys vote on this TA can directly effect how I am compensated, and feed my family. Just because many of us do not work at 9e doesn't mean we are not directly influenced by it, and therefore watching this vote closely.

Okay, I just ran the math again based on my "line in the sand" for me personally I did last year when this whole debacle started. Realistically, I'd be downgraded back to a topped out FO next year, so I'd be at $38/hr. Based on guarantee of 75 hours a month, that's $2850 month. Minus the crashpad I'd be paying for the commute based in JFK it's $2600/mo.

So, I looked at what a reasonable fall back locally would be. What would I have to make at a local job to make that? It boils down to a $12/hr job with 10 hours of OT. In the market here with the theme parks, that's do-able. That comes out to $2640 a month. Plus, I don't have to deal with overnights and I'd get more time with my wife and kid. Take out the overtime, and it's $1920/mo.

I wouldn't be one of the lucky few furloughed in 2013, so I'd be stuck with the 1 month buy out, so there's an extra $2600 to spread over a couple of years, I guess. In one year, that's $217/mo, depending on how they tax it. If it's considered a bonus, so goodbye to a huge chunk of it based on what happened with our signing bonus checks from the last TA. Basically, what they're asking is far below what my idea of a professional pilot should be compensated. YMMV.

If the TA is voted down they will most likely go back to court and impose a new 1113 that the bankruptcy judge has already indicated would be approved.

Beyond the crap TA I'm also very concerned whether or not we can or will be pursuing new flying opportunities in the future. I'd like to hear a little more from management on their future plans.

Yes, I know, it effect other regionals. I was just saying that it has nothing to do with Shyguy or how effect his airline. It's always the same thing, over and over again. "I saw the BK coming, blah blah blah, I got out, you should too" Most of his comment doesn't nothing but **** the Pinnacle pilots off. That's why I asked if he has ever voiced his opinion about the Delta or United TA. It doesn't effect him in anyways.

I can see this happening. I can't see Delta shutting us down just because we vote no, when they can go back to the judge and get the new TA impose.

Didn't the company state that they would not be seeking another 1113? I suppose anything can change though...