PNCL FURLOUGH'S: survival, food stamps, etc
 

For those facing financial ruin, bankruptcy, car reposseion, unemployment, etc, it's time to band together. While Pinnacle is taking its last breathes of air from the life support machine (aka Daddy Delta), where can you go before the plug is pulled?

Has anyone from the mass of ComAir pilots been able to find airline pilot jobs or are they at Walmart greeting people? Or have they flooded the market?

Is anyone hiring?

How much do food stamps pay for? How long do they last?

How long will unemployment last?

Will the government give a free type rating in a 737 after I get my last paycheck?

Will travel benefits through Delta exist after 9E shuts down?

Dude read the latest ALPA email, there is an entire garden in there, not just one carrot. It will pass overwelmingly now, no shut down.

Calling it a "garden" doesn't soften the blow of unemployment.


Thanks! Happy Holidays!

Oh, well, congratulations to the 800 pilots who get to remain employed. I hope they live it up in the "Garden" without the rest of the 1,500 pilots.

I take it you havent read it? Primarily the part about pay while furloughed along with benefits...

Believe it when I see it.

Maybe in lieu of saying the same thing three different ways, you just read the email? :rolleyes:

Pinchanickled, are you really just now figuring out this industry and career sucks? It's always been like this and always will be like this...

I haven't been exactly up to speed on PNCL, so forgive my ignorance. You guys are furloughing 1500? Is that a concrete number or is there a possibility of saving some jobs? I understand there's a TA to vote on, what happens if it's passed and what if it's voted down? According to managment that it. I know the games so no need to speculate.

All the 900's sold
All the 200's going to the desert
All the turboprops going to the desert


For every 3 and half planes plane removed, they will replace it with one shiny crj-900.

It's a 7:2 ratio park job. or 3.5:1

2300 pilots currently on property. 1500 furloughed. 810 remain employed (405 captains, 405 downgraded to fo's)


......................if the TA passes!


And, if the TA fails...............ALL 2300 LOSE THEIR JOB!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HO HO HO HO HO!!!

MEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYY CHRISTMAAAAASSSS!!!

A few things to note about the email:

1. I wonder what the details are for said "bridge program" to mainline.
2. There will be pay and benefits to those furloughed.
3. Projections for 2013 are 150 furloughs.

Of primary interest is that it's 150 furloughs in 2013. The CRJ-900s can't be delivered until the 717's start coming, and they don't start being delivered until Sept 2013. So, it's leaving a lot unsaid by only talking about 2013. The pain would come in 2014 when the vast majority of the 717s are delivered.

Read between the lines in these memos, as you all should know.

So delta is reducing the number of 900's over all in your fleet? I thought they liked those? Also, you guys aren't wholly owned like comair. Can't pncl look to alocate those airplanes elsewhere? I'm guessing they will. After all, I'm assuming the pending TA makes their cost structure more appealing to the likes of UAL/US/AA.

You will get paid on furlough?!

How does that work??

Why would you vote yes if you are getting furloughed..not like the flying will be coming back. I think the ones going out on the street should pull the rug right out from under this mess.

However, because some of our pilots will face furlough as a consequence of the planned reduction of the CRJ 200 fleet over the next 2 to 3 years, the Bridge Agreement provides for furlough benefits packages that include pay, health care, passes, and an ATP for those with the requisite number of hours. Long Term Leaves (including Enhanced Long Term Leaves) will continue to be offered over the next several years, and we believe these leaves will greatly reduce the number of furloughs. The total number of projected furloughs for all of 2013 is approximately 150 pilots.

Okay, I am Forest Gump.

What does "pay, health care, passes, and an ATP" really mean? And only 150 furloughs when we have about 1400 more pilots than we will eventually need? How can that be... especially considering that Delta has no plans to hire in 2013?

Explain it to me like I am a six year old.

(I really want to see this TA.)

Your last statement says it all.

Wait to see the darned thing.

Knock it off. Talk about sour grapes. Grow up.

I said elsewhere that assuming I was still at 9E, the only way I would vote "yes" was them to give me pay and health care while on furlough. Then they actually say something about it. My question is, what are the terms of this? I HIGHLY doubt you'll get paid to sit at home plus medical and flight benefits for a year or two. They wanted to CUT costs. This wouldn't do that. In fact, with fewer airplanes flying, it means less income. Makes no sense to have less income but pay people for not flying. Isn't that one of the major reasons Pinnacle is in the situation they are?

This, to me, screams of the only way they could get this to pass, and I'd be very interested (and cautious) of the language that goes along with it. Still doesn't change the fact that a LOT of CAs are going to be downgraded, then furloughed. That pay while on furlough is certainly going to be at the FO rate....

It will probably be something like 2 weeks of pay per year of service to a furloughed pilot and a month of insurance per year of service. Comair was something like that.

Severance packages are common in the business world. Pilots shouldn't be any different.

Delta is obviously bank rolling this thing and it's pure genius. Evil genius, but still a brilliant move. They are sweetening the pot just enough to do a couple things.

1. This will reduce a mass exodus now, which will keep costs down. I'm sure attrtition would be far more than the 150 planned furloughs this year if they didn't throw the benefits package in there.

2. They are obviously going after the junior vote. You are getting furloughed either way. They could shove any work rule/wage concession they want in there and 1500 of the pilots voting on them won't be around to see it very long. You're essentially voting on something that'll only effect the top 800 long term. What does it matter then? The bottom 1500 will still get something out of it.

3. If this TA passes, Delta will turn around and use it against the other DCI carriers, furthering the race to the bottom. Please remember the implications of this passing will reverberate far beyond the confines of Pinnacle Airlines.

Remember the word HOPE. It's a very strong emotion that management uses brilliantly against its work groups. They're giving you just enough hope that many will probably vote this thing through.

I wish the best for Pinnacle. Good luck to all you guys and your decisions.

If that's the case, then the union is doing a huge disservice to the pilot group wording it in the manner they have. A "severance package" is not "pay while on furlough."

I would imagine the end result is likely excactly as you've described.

Let the sell job begin that email sounds desperate. Show us the TA the road shows are starting today should be a one sided discussion.

Parts of this sound like your Reps did a great job in a very tough situation.

Part of this sounds like the senior pilots are trying to take an unfair advantage.

Go on ALPA's web site >> My ALPA >> e-library. ALPA's policy manual, Section 40, states every effort should be made "...to secure contract language in every ALPA agreement which provides for the preferential hiring of ALPA-represented pilots displaced by furlough, bankruptcy, shutdown or strike." If approved, Pinnacle's proposal would put senior, employed, Captains ahead of those who had lost, or were in the process of losing their jobs. Isn't a flow turning ALPA's guidance upside down?

There is also the issue that Pinnacle is trying to modify the intent of language in the Delta Pilot Working Agreement.

So, ask about the holes. How is Delta bound? What about changes to the Delta pilot working agreement which were not authorized? Are there any other "flows" in the industry that have worked? Where has airline management kept their promise to hire pilots? Or, is this an empty, unfair, use of a promise to sell a concessionary contract which lowers the bar in our profession?

As others have noted, Comair took numerous concessions with the same result. Expect your own Representatives to try to scare the hell out of you to get you to sign of on a deal.

I'm curious how road shows are going to go without final language even done. Reminds me of a previous TA where we got it in sections.....

Wow...blame and **** on them for this and wish ill will upon them just because they are senior to you and might have a job and you might not. Classy.

no, it goes back to the judge who now imposes it upon us, since the Company and Union both thought it was fair. Business goes on as usual. Sorry to disappoint you that just because you will be out of a job, not everyone will be. You're really something else....

We don't have the TA yet so before we make any determination we need to see it. Especially since you don't fly here. Our pilot group will vote what's best for us and our families not for any other airline or pilot.

Assuming the company sticks around the extra two days. DPI financing got extended to the 17th of Jan. Voting closes on the 15th. It's the American legal system, so either Delta gives them ANOTHER extension in order to keep limping along to the court date or padlocks for the doors.

It looks to me like the company is hinging everything on this passing.

True enough. Your Reps are dealing with my management. That piques my interest.

True, but do you really think this was all done without any say from DALPA? I find that hard to believe.

That is what they've stated, in writing.

Like you, I find it hard to believe.

Lee Moak had a bit of a reputation for acting unilaterally as Delta's MEC Chair, but he was always within his power to do so. ALPA National Constution, Bylaws and Administrative Manual are much more developed and restricting than those documents which are internal to Delta MEC governance.

Lee Moak had stated support for outsourcing and support for flow through agreements.

In this case it appears an end run around the autonomy of the Delta MEC was engineered by trying to make this an arm's length transaction and perhaps using conditional language. In ALPA's history, such efforts have always drawn a quick rebuke from ALPA's President. The fact Lee Moak has been silent to this point means he must have authorized these negotiations. Still there are numerous ... and I mean quite a few ... procedural violations which will have to be explained.

Lee Moak must be banking on the fact his friends at Delta will not question his actions. Politically, no ALPA President has ever gone so far.

If they get away with it, the action harms ALPA. There was fringe move to displace ALPA as the bargaining agent on the Delta property. IMHO the best argument for ALPA was the exclusivity and autonomy the Delta MEC has with Delta management. Now, it appears that might not be a valid defense.

Eagle recruiters said that a lot of Comair pilots are looking to get on here. They are seeing really good people coming from Comair. I wonder how many people from Pinnacle will be coming to Eagle too.

I have been with 9E for 5 years and stay pretty current with what's going on internally and on these message boards. The fact is, I don't need to see the language. It's "no" vote for me.
Pinnacle has screwed over the pilot group time and time again because of poor management decisions. This time I won't let them get away with it.
Career progression to Delta? What does that mean? Even if it is preferential hiring or flow, I wouldn't see employment at Delta for probably 10 years based on my seniority. I'd be furloughed first, then have to work my way all the way back to the top. (There is probably going to be some language like Compass has, i.e., not more than 25% of the pilot group can flow/interview per year.)
150 pilots furloughed in 2013? Ok fine, what about 2014 when they fix their training bubble and the 200's really start going away? Funny they didn't mention anything about that.
And who really cares about furlough pay/protections, particularly if you're an F/O? You're an F/O at a regional! Go work someplace else and work toward making captain for that all important PIC time. Sitting on your @ss at home is doing nothing for your long term career progression.
It's time to put Pinnacle where it belongs, six feet under.

Race to the bottom where? at other regionals? In 5-7 years regionals will gone due to massive hiring at the majors and pilot shortage. As I said before my family comes first before your judgement of a race to the bottom. No one likes the position were in but this TA is going to be much better than what they wanted originally and what they could get from the judge while Delta winds us down with no benefits that were offered by Big D.

I have realized that some pilots are so angry that only a no vote will make them feel better. What I have realized is these fellow pilots believe what they want to believe not the facts the TA that has not even been released. My only hope is they leave the industry because they show me they make judgments and decisions on emotion and not facts. In reality they are definitely not mentally strong enough to lead a flight crew through an emergency.

I agree I think I would rather be looking for a new job receiving a little less money rather than be unemployed and not current. We don't know what exactly is in the TA but we do know the basics if it doesn't pass the company will wind down within a year. If it passes we have time to look for new jobs and most likely have time to see some hiring start in the majors. I'm not telling anyone how to vote I just hope everyone votes in a way that truly benefits them not their anger.

Also you have been 5 years so you sitting somewhere in the 1600-1800 range I would assume, you have a year maybe two IF you get furloughed. With the number of people leaving you never know what will happen.

How many XJ guys were "going" to get furloughed when they announced the Saabs were going away but never did?

This whole the sky if falling mentality is laughable you people are making assumptions about a TA only a handful of people have seen, if you haven't seen it shut up and wait 5 hours until someone post every detail about it on here.

Honestly if you are an automatic no vote just leave and find a different job already because you are doing no good here anyways.

And btw I am less than 5 years seniority so don't blow the lifer horn.

Why is a guy getting crucified because he said he is voting no on a TA??

I'm considering it. I am roughly 80 from the bottom. That means I will get furloughed in the first round. Plus, I don't expect to ever ger recalled. I see the writing.

Food stamps? Really? Are you too good to get a job outside the airline industry, or do you lack the education/job skills to do so?

What was your plan B (besides government handouts)?

Our high attrition could take care of the first round (150) so, no furloughs needed in 2013!!

This isn't a fact, the wind down, so please stop fear mongering. I believe this thing will pass for that reason only, fear, and then after things settle we will be left to accept the ramifications of our fear. Don't be controlled by fear of the immediate and look at the long term reality outside of your little bubble before you vote, yes or no