Pinnacle First Officer ATP Checkride Failures
12-29-2012 | 10:58 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,169
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From: Volleyball Player
The issue isn't preparing, it's questions that are unneccesary, unrelated to the required knowledge, from two wildcard examiners who are trying to stump the dummy in a unprofessional, unrealistic scenarios, that are irrelevant.
If the gold standard is the "oral exam guide" why do they feel the need to deviate so far from it that a photographic memory of all the manuals will not be sufficient in order to answer the trick questions presented.
If the gold standard is the "oral exam guide" why do they feel the need to deviate so far from it that a photographic memory of all the manuals will not be sufficient in order to answer the trick questions presented.
12-29-2012 | 11:29 AM
#14
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Joined: May 2010
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From: A320 FO
Negative. As was mentioned, it's the pilot's job to appeal. In this case, there's even steps set out in the (as of now) current CBA. If the FOs that feel they were wronged aren't following those steps, well, it's their fault for that. It's in black and white, and it's been in the contract for a while now.
I won't deny there are some examiners at 9E that are pretty tough. I did my upgrade/type/ATP ride with pink slip, and I passed. It was a tough ride, but I didn't think it was unfair. I DID see a lot of places where guys could dig themselves a hole they wouldn't be able to get out of, though.
I won't deny there are some examiners at 9E that are pretty tough. I did my upgrade/type/ATP ride with pink slip, and I passed. It was a tough ride, but I didn't think it was unfair. I DID see a lot of places where guys could dig themselves a hole they wouldn't be able to get out of, though.
12-29-2012 | 11:45 AM
#15
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Joined: Jan 2012
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From: I'm Buying
So let me get this straight:
A large group of airline pilots isn't able to pass the exam to become an "airline transport pilot"? And then they sue?
Tough for them. Part of the idea of the new standards are that pilots are going to be expected to perform at a higher level and be skilled airline pilots. This isn't just a "check off the box" item like the English Proficient thing was. This is about weeding out those pilots who can't meet the higher standard. If you don't know enough about your airplane after years of flying it to pass an ATP checkride in it, that sounds like a long-term professionalism problem on the part of the pilot.
You can't blame it on the check airman unless they're failing everyone. But, then again, this is America. Its not my fault I can't pass a checkride, I'm just going to sue the airline. Because thats what we all want -- subpar pilots who sued their way back into their job and to have their pink slips cleared. If only I would've known that I could have done that, I wouldn't have studied so hard every time I went in for a checkride.
A large group of airline pilots isn't able to pass the exam to become an "airline transport pilot"? And then they sue?
Tough for them. Part of the idea of the new standards are that pilots are going to be expected to perform at a higher level and be skilled airline pilots. This isn't just a "check off the box" item like the English Proficient thing was. This is about weeding out those pilots who can't meet the higher standard. If you don't know enough about your airplane after years of flying it to pass an ATP checkride in it, that sounds like a long-term professionalism problem on the part of the pilot.
You can't blame it on the check airman unless they're failing everyone. But, then again, this is America. Its not my fault I can't pass a checkride, I'm just going to sue the airline. Because thats what we all want -- subpar pilots who sued their way back into their job and to have their pink slips cleared. If only I would've known that I could have done that, I wouldn't have studied so hard every time I went in for a checkride.
12-29-2012 | 11:46 AM
#17
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Joined: Jul 2012
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They did one on my last AQP ride. 15 min oral. No charts, wx or regs.
12-29-2012 | 11:53 AM
#18
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
The issue isn't preparing, it's questions that are unneccesary and unrelated to the required knowledge, from two wildcard examiners who are trying to stump the dummy in unrealistic scenario based questions, that are frankly irrelevant.
If the gold standard is the "oral exam guide" why do they feel the need to deviate so far from it that a photographic memory of all the manuals will not be sufficient in order to answer the trick questions presented.
If the gold standard is the "oral exam guide" why do they feel the need to deviate so far from it that a photographic memory of all the manuals will not be sufficient in order to answer the trick questions presented.
12-29-2012 | 12:16 PM
#19
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,169
Likes: 97
From: Volleyball Player
Ultimately flight standards is responsible for oversight. They are going to have a field day in court when they ask him why he didn't notify/complain/inform the FAA.
12-29-2012 | 12:19 PM
#20
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Joined: Dec 2012
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I recently completed my ATP exam with Pinnacle. I must say, there is not much guidence or preperation offered to FOs before they come down for it, basically its a short memo on what to expect (systems, limitations, walk around slide). I studied 1-2 hrs a day for about 2 weeks prior so I felt fairly preparded. I also made sure my logbooks were totalled correctly and everything was well presented like going into an interview. The examiner saw this and later told me he knew I would pass right away based on my level of preperation.
I don't believe they are out to fail anyone at all. If you show up prepared, you will pass. Know the limiations, walk around slide, and overhead panel solid and you will pass the oral just fine. Also know alt weather mins, basic FARs, and know where to find information in the FOM.
My only gripe with the whole experience is the scheduling aspect of it. On day one, show up to Flight Safety at 9am with a 2 hour pre-prep oral (while Captain does his PC oral). One hour break, one hour pre brief then 5 hours in the box. It was a very long day. Then I came back at 6am the next morning to do my ATP checkride. They should be having the oral scheduled on a diffrent day than the sim.
I have heard a few horror stories and had no idea FOs were being termanted and failing at high rates. Based on what I experienced there is no reason you should fail if you prepare moderatly. I don't believe any of the instructors are out there to fail you, there are just a bunch of incompetent FOs that are not doing crap to prepare themselves, coming down to MEM thinking its just another PC
I don't believe they are out to fail anyone at all. If you show up prepared, you will pass. Know the limiations, walk around slide, and overhead panel solid and you will pass the oral just fine. Also know alt weather mins, basic FARs, and know where to find information in the FOM.
My only gripe with the whole experience is the scheduling aspect of it. On day one, show up to Flight Safety at 9am with a 2 hour pre-prep oral (while Captain does his PC oral). One hour break, one hour pre brief then 5 hours in the box. It was a very long day. Then I came back at 6am the next morning to do my ATP checkride. They should be having the oral scheduled on a diffrent day than the sim.
I have heard a few horror stories and had no idea FOs were being termanted and failing at high rates. Based on what I experienced there is no reason you should fail if you prepare moderatly. I don't believe any of the instructors are out there to fail you, there are just a bunch of incompetent FOs that are not doing crap to prepare themselves, coming down to MEM thinking its just another PC
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