I have heard the same thing. Someone said that they are shaving off 15 minutes, or something like that, off their showtime and that will allow better efficencies and production from the pilots. I heard that from a United guy who said United may adopt the same program. So much for the pilot shortage I have been waiting 25 years for...

Duplicate post

Nothing personal to you as I don't know you and will not judge your moral character on a pilot forum. However this type of view when voting is kind of what got pilots in the debacle that they are in at the moment. Being part of a "union" yet only thinking about themselves as the voter.

I think (hope) we are seeing a change within this toxic culture of professional pilots. A change where a vote is more about the group (all pilots in the industry) as a whole, rather than the voter himself. People need to look around an weigh out the situation before they vote. Some vote out of spite. Some out of greed. But I hear a lot more about people voting yes/no when the outcome may not favor themselves only.

So when you point out that voting no will most likely result in an unfavorable situation for the voter himself remember he has probably thought of that. Quite possibly for once he feels taking one for the team is the best course of action.

I for one think airlines need some type of accountability. For as far as airlines go back, poor management has been bailed out so many times by the very pilot groups that followed them so loyally. Rock bottom has been hit and the job is sort of on the fence when it comes to sacrificing yours if it means management has to look else where to be cost competitive to emerge from years of incompetence.

Pilots need to stand up for themselves . Not their jobs.

Isn't 65% of the group going to be unemployed regardless? So take bribe money to pass a TA that still can't save your job?

It depends where on the list you sit. If I was very junior I can see a no vote would make sense. However with guys who are half way up the list, it's a different story. If we turned down this TA we get shut down in 6-12 months. However, it we vote this TA in, someone who's half way on the list will very likely have a job til mid-late 2014 (based on reduction of all reduction of all 200's and additional 40 900's). Yes 65% will be out of a job but by voting this in they might see it as having a job for another 12-18 months. I'm not saying that what I'm basing my vote on but my guess of why guys might vote yes or no.

I couldnt agree with you more. But, you said we should consider voting on whats best for the group. But what group? Our pilot group or yours? Our carrier or yours? Our regional industry or our mainline industry, since they pay our bills?

Everyone thinks about themselves regardless of their occupation. Pilots are no exception. I believe most of us (pilots) do consider the ramifications that our actions have on the industry as a whole (eg. 9E not letting the planes go to the lowest bidder). But I cannot deny that self-interest also plays a role. Thats just human nature.

The perfect world does not exist. If it did, we would all be equal, make the same amount of income. Thats not our reality. The reality is my carrier/pilots want your flying and your carrier/pilots want our flying. Mainline carriers want to make more money so they take it from the weaker companies in the game when possible. Thats not good for everyone. That is the game of doing business.

If it was as straight forward as saying, "lets just put together an ISL and contract that is best for all involved", there would be no need for attorneys. However, whats best for the junior pilot, is not what is best for the mid seniority pilot. Whats best for the mid seniority pilot is not whats best for the most senior pilot, etc. So, we negotiate. Some people are happy with the result, some are not. Most just disgruntled about the whole affair.

9E had a very different view on how 9L and XJ should be treated with respect to the ISL and vice versus. There's no perfect formula that fits the needs of everyone. If there was, all pilots would make the same amount of money, regardless of what plane they flew, which seat they occupy, or how many seats the plane has. But there is not. We fight against each other and our competition, even though the competition sometimes works for the same carrier.

Rock bottom with respect to our TA is close but not "hit". Rock bottom would be no TA and no job. The carriers that will do it cheapest are the rock bottom. We are not there yet.

I think that the reason I keep coming back to this forum is to interact with people like you. You bring up a rational view of how you see the world around you and you speak from the heart. That makes me see things in my world in a different view. Hopefully we both grow from the interaction.

Thanks

PINNACLE DOES NOT EQUAL COMAIR. Comair was full of pilots with lots of attitude and their performance was poor. They went on strike and got Delta Angry. Pinnacle doesn't have that working against them.

Well, everyone knows Pinnacle's pilot group is filled with morons. I suppose it'll be best if they shut it down anyway.

Oh snap!!!

So you personally knew every Comair pilot to know that all of them had an attitude problem? You just nominated yourself for tool of the day.

So are we gonna get better travel benefits like comair had? Hahahahahaha

ShyGuy, Im sure you have read some of my posts which gives you an idea of my point of view. I will ask you the same thing I have asked others to answer so I can better understand your point of view. Please answer honestly as if you were in our situation.

If you had the choice:

A) Keep your job a little while longer to build up your flight time, get your ATP to make yourself more marketable and all the other perks in the TA plus $2000 for 0-1st year longevity, save the aircraft we have left from going to S5 and Gojets which lowers the bar even more for your next negotiations.

OR

B) Become unemployed


What would you personally choose? And yes this is a direct question for you to answer, a simple A or B will suffice.

And while were at it, I will repost the other two questions I posed to another member here.

1) If you were making $75K to $120k per year, would you be so eager to give that up for the sake of the industry and the good of other pilots? Just curious, an honest yes or no answer please with an explanation if you dont mind. Thanks

2) Also, in all sincerity, could you explain how it will benefit the industry when our airplanes go to a carrier that will fly them for less than we can, even with our concessionary TA? Keep in mind that three other carriers have already bid for our flying in the event the TA doesnt pass and they are cheaper than us with our TA.



Instead of incendiary remarks like yours, and others, why dont you try to come up with a solution and share that with us? These kind of remarks do nothing to sway my vote. Its comments like these that will keep us segregated forever and further the divide that exists. Perhaps that is what you want? I know that is what mainline/management does to whipsaw us and here you are doing the same thing.

The only reason I can see that non-9E NoVoters have, to pursue the negativity, is that it threatens your career because 9E will still be in competition with you and you will not have all of our planes. You see a weak carrier (9E) getting bent over with this TA and instead of trying to help us get through it you only hold the door open to the slaughter house for us. The lack of unity we share as regional pilots is our downfall.



You ask for me to hold the line for you and the best you can come up with is telling me that I am accepting bribe money.

I wish pinnacle the best, I have many friends there. But what you said is a bit off. Too many signs show a repeat of the past. I fear a yes vote will bring down pay and qol, only to give you guys an extra year or two. Then the next regional for many for you will follow suit in downgraded pay and qol.

Hmm you sure it is just Comair that has pilots with poor attitudes? :rolleyes: TOTD

[QUOTE=CheckPower;1323890]The union didnt sell out the mid to junior pilots. I am one of them. The union negotiated a deal with Delta and Delta said "no thanks, Gojets will do it cheaper". The Union went back to Delta and renegotiated a deal that Delta would agree to. That deal is the TA we are voting on now. The Union could have held the line and said no thanks and shut the doors. But they stuck with it so that the pilots could determine their own fate.

All the Union did was give the pilots the choice to wind down or stay employed. They openly admit that this TA sucks but they were not willing to decide the fate of 2400 pilots on their own. They left that decision soley to the pilot group.

Go to a road show and get all the info. Hell, even Pinnacle Pete said they did a great job negotiating this TA. If you knew Pinnacle Pete, that says something.

I hope when you and I are 20 year captains that the union fights for me and you. The union represents all pilots, not just the low to mid seniority guys.[QUOTE]
You are losing it if you don't think this benefits the very senior only. The methodology for computing the compensation pay is ludicrous, they claim it is to make up for lack of advancement. How about the guys being downgraded they are losing way more, and the guys losing their jobs, how do you put a price tag on that? There will be no advancement after this is voted in, the naivete is nauseating. This whole pay out thing is one disgusting example of these jokers negotiating for the top guys. They could of saved that money and put it toward first officer pay and first officer longevity, those are the guys getting screwed by this, but no that would take an ounce of empathy for those who will either be out of work or forever FO. Can't make your payments on 90 grand a year!! Way to go TW.

It's not worth it, you are asking someone who's not facing the same situation we are. He will say "I would vote no, blah blah blah". It's easy for someone who works at XJT, Skywest and so on to say "Vote no" because they are not facing the same situation we are. I can tell you that you will not find one Pinnacle pilot who is happy about voting yes or no. It's a hard choice to make, and sucks no matter how you look at it. We don't benefits in any way from this TA compared to what we have. Pay cut, work rules loss of flying and so on.

I was there 26 years. Where were all those pilots hiding?

Agreed.

Seems like a lot of pilots around here with attitudes.

No your right... Pinnacle is just filled with pilots that would put knee pads on and get on their knees for Delta anytime.
Oh didn't Pinnacle vote 99% to strike also?
You are the tool of the day.

The current folks are crediting 100 hours a month on full time buy, while the reserve pilots are lucky to break guarantee (75). Those on partial buy use it as a tool to enhance their schedules and work the system. Same name, different faces, nothing has changed.

When is the last time Wychor has touched the controls? Or has he had a 10+ year career in "negotiating"?

Comair went on strike and their performance was poor... :confused:

The strike was almost 12 years ago. Are you saying Comair has had poor performance for 12 years? Please show your math.

TOTD IMHO. YMMV.

Guys guys... it doesn't matter... vote yes.. vote no.. Most of you are really terrible at your jobs anyway. It's all going to be fine, buddies.

Now, can we just get back to talking about assault rifles and french kissing livestock?

^^^^^ just made me spit out beer. :D

Pinnacle pilots despite what management has done, have continued to have some of the best performance numbers in the industry. This could change if this TA is voted in and if it does, I will believe we are destined to follow in Comair's footsteps. If we continue to operate efficiently I think being cheaper makes us attractive in every way. I know this is something that most of you hate. We should work slowly so we need more pilots and we should be paid what we all think we deserve even if the market doesn't support that level of pay. I for one would love more salary but I understand that at the regional level you take what you can get in hopes of a better job elsewhere. I joined up knowing this truth. Good luck to all regional pilots who have to endure this industry for any length of time.

With that attitude, you'll be earning 'regional' industry income for a LONG time, even if/when you start flying for a better carrier. When you're content subsisting on scraps thrown your way, don't be surprised that you're perpetually hungry.

At some point, you must stop counting on everyone else to do the heavy lifting while you just hop onto their coat-tails, enjoying the fruits of their labor.

Im curious to know what you and the other non-9E NoVoters are doing to solve the problem?

Depends on what you mean by "solve the problem"...

Is the problem Pinnacle's demise at the hands of an uncaring Mgt team?

Or is the problem feeding your family and paying off flightschool loans with pay cuts and furlough?

Both problems. :)

And this is the crux of the entire problem.

Anyone who gets the beat down because of unfair law and management practices is expected to take the sacrificial fall to better the others in the industry.

If we had a real union organization, all of our union brothers from other airlines would be coming to OUR aid and not allow management to treat us in this manner.

As it is, we are expected to fall on the sword for them.

Yup. They will accept the same when DL comes for them.

UH Oh............. All the best Pinnacle. You may want to look at the relationship mama Delta had with Comair. Check out the Comair thread too- especially the youtube videos dealing with that movie Deliverance.

+1 (filler)

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

So if you make less than a fast food worker and have 50 lives in your hand and ask Delta for a livable wage - you have an attitude? You may want to re-check your facts.

I just want to tell you, when Delta brought Comair we were all so very happy. Then their true colaors came out. Delta didn't buy Comair to benefit them or Delta, they brought them to shut them down but to eliminate a potential competitior that would have given Delta a run for thier money.

When is the vote?

Grammar errors correction to avoid the grammar nazis!! :p

Started on JAN 04 ends on the 15th.

Dancing around everyone calling you out when you said all Comair pilots had bad attitudes and poor performance? You just spew a bunch of crap and then try to hide from it by avoiding it later? Good luck in life if that's all you have going for you. :rolleyes:

Always has been and always will be an empty red-herring used to to try and silence the union dissenters. When was the last time any CEO came to the pilot group and said "Gee guys, we're all outta ideas up here. Got any solutions???" We're here to make get people from A to B safely. Unless your "solution" is to increase the bottom line (i.e. paycuts), management doesn't look to us for our input or feedback. The "solution" of taking 3 steps back (i.e. living to fight another day) is exactly what has brought this industry to the tumultuous state it's in today. Belliott stated it very well. Got any solutions that DON'T involve kicking the industry in the nuts, Check?

I will say this simply. I realize this is not what you want to hear but the whole reason to outsource is to save money. Cheap carriers will get more business than expensive ones. If you think that because you have a lot of responsibility in the job you are supposed to be doing and that translates into a good salary, well thats not the way salaries work. Teachers provide an invaluable service and they are not paid very well for it. I think that pay for first officers is criminal. The only way that will change is if no one takes the job at that level of pay. My point with Comair versus Pinnacle is that the pilot group at Pinnacle has not had the same problems with their mainline counterparts. I am basing this on hearsay and anecdotal evidence. The only reason I bring this up is because people think that Pinnacle is dead because Delta is acquiring them.

Why is it that when workers in this country express gratitude and show loyalty to their company they are called company men. If your management doesn't treat you the way you deserve or wish to be treated the only honorable thing to do is resign. I don't agree with or support sticking around the organization and try to sabotage it.

All yes, the ole "the world isn't fair bit". Do you have any idea what the world would be like if no one ever stood up for their rights, beliefs, fairness and all that? You absolutely can make a positive change on an organization or industry. Maybe not always in the short term, but I doubt we'd have things as good as we do today if people simply gave up.