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Originally Posted by Bartok
(Post 1324603)
And this is the crux of the entire problem.
Anyone who gets the beat down because of unfair law and management practices is expected to take the sacrificial fall to better the others in the industry. If we had a real union organization, all of our union brothers from other airlines would be coming to OUR aid and not allow management to treat us in this manner. As it is, we are expected to fall on the sword for them. |
Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1324673)
I will say this simply. I realize this is not what you want to hear but the whole reason to outsource is to save money. Cheap carriers will get more business than expensive ones. If you think that because you have a lot of responsibility in the job you are supposed to be doing and that translates into a good salary, well thats not the way salaries work. Teachers provide an invaluable service and they are not paid very well for it. I think that pay for first officers is criminal. The only way that will change is if no one takes the job at that level of pay. My point with Comair versus Pinnacle is that the pilot group at Pinnacle has not had the same problems with their mainline counterparts. I am basing this on hearsay and anecdotal evidence. The only reason I bring this up is because people think that Pinnacle is dead because Delta is acquiring them.
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If pilots would not accept jobs at unacceptable wages the wages would go up. The problem is that if you as an individual refuse to take the job someone else will. So the wages stay low. I am not saying you should work for a company that doesn't pay you well. I am advocating quitting and if everyone quits they will change.
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Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1324856)
If pilots would not accept jobs at unacceptable wages the wages would go up. The problem is that if you as an individual refuse to take the job someone else will. So the wages stay low. I am not saying you should work for a company that doesn't pay you well. I am advocating quitting and if everyone quits they will change.
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Originally Posted by Red Forman
(Post 1324852)
So the only reason why you say Comair pilots have bad attitudes and poor performance is because someone else told you that? Does your mom still cut up your food for you too?
At a job fair I attended this past fall everyone in line in front of and behind me were ex Comair. The level of maturity and professionalism I saw was above anything I could have imagined. The guys and gals I was in line with were 10-15 and 20 year plus employees that were getting furloughed and thier attitudes were head and shoulders above a lot of attitudes I've seen and heard over the years in crew rooms and riding jumpseats of every airline from the biggest frieght company to the smallest regional. Not trying to harsh on anyone else by any means, just saying, from what I saw, they were a class act. |
A Thank You from all of us from OH.
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I see I need to change my position from deadhead.
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Pinnacle is not Comair that is the point. I am sure Comair was full of great pilots. I am not saying that they were not. I only was pointing out that the dynamic between Delta and Pinnacle is different than between Delta and Comair however imagined it maybe have been.
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Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1324918)
Pinnacle is not Comair that is the point. I am sure Comair was full of great pilots. I am not saying that they were not. I only was pointing out that the dynamic between Delta and Pinnacle is different than between Delta and Comair however imagined it maybe have been.
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Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1324857)
Well, I do believe 9E has a vote regarding this very fact.... Lets see what happens.
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Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
(Post 1324968)
We all know why you want pinnacle to vote it down and it has nothing to do with pay. You have been a vocal 9e hater since you left and found your demi-god seat amongst skywest sky kings. What you fail to realize is that you would actually benefit from pinnacle passing this TA. If we don't and we go under then you only have gojets and compass to compete with. This TA puts pinnacle at the middle of the road, cheaper than you, but more expensive than gojets and compass. Be careful what you wish for , slats, we all know you're only drooling over the airplanes.
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Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
(Post 1324968)
We all know why you want pinnacle to vote it down and it has nothing to do with pay. You have been a vocal 9e hater since you left and found your demi-god seat amongst skywest sky kings. What you fail to realize is that you would actually benefit from pinnacle passing this TA. If we don't and we go under then you only have gojets and compass to compete with. This TA puts pinnacle at the middle of the road, cheaper than you, but more expensive than gojets and compass. Be careful what you wish for , slats, we all know you're only drooling over the airplanes.
actually, 9e would be cheaper than GoJetzzzz Munk. So, please give me some hard facts as to how "we" would benefit from your TA passing? I care more about pay, not airplanes. |
Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1324856)
If pilots would not accept jobs at unacceptable wages the wages would go up. The problem is that if you as an individual refuse to take the job someone else will. So the wages stay low. I am not saying you should work for a company that doesn't pay you well. I am advocating quitting and if everyone quits they will change.
Well said, but the problem is, everyone wont quit. I have seen one FO quit because he was tired of the abuse. Honestly he was about to get fired anyway. Everyone just watched him walk out the door with not even a, "good luck" farewell. All for one and one for all is a sentiment only shared by the three musketeers. |
Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1324984)
Yeah, I guess me and every other pilot group in contract negotiations feel the same way. :rolleyes:
actually, 9e would be cheaper than GoJetzzzz Munk. So, please give me some hard facts as to how "we" would benefit from your TA passing? I care more about pay, not airplanes. Slats, what factual information do you have that 9E will be cheaper than Gojets? You make me laugh. |
Originally Posted by CheckPower
(Post 1324989)
Slats, what factual information do you have that 9E will be cheaper than Gojets? You make me laugh.
Compass $42 Air Wisconsin $45 GoJet $38 PSA $40 Trans States $41 Eagle $41 ExpressJet $43 Republic $37 Skywest $48 Mesa $36 Okay, you're .58 cents better than G7. I stand corrected. But, I have no idea what your soft pay looks like with this new TA. Want to she'd some light? |
Originally Posted by AxialFlow
(Post 1324656)
Always has been and always will be an empty red-herring used to to try and silence the union dissenters. When was the last time any CEO came to the pilot group and said "Gee guys, we're all outta ideas up here. Got any solutions???" We're here to make get people from A to B safely. Unless your "solution" is to increase the bottom line (i.e. paycuts), management doesn't look to us for our input or feedback. The "solution" of taking 3 steps back (i.e. living to fight another day) is exactly what has brought this industry to the tumultuous state it's in today. Belliott stated it very well. Got any solutions that DON'T involve kicking the industry in the nuts, Check?
I have no solutions for this. Short of a unified regional pilot seniority list I cant see any solutions. This is why I came here to APC to see how the actual regional pilots were getting together to hold the line. But, since its every carrier/pilot for themselves, the line will not hold, ever. As I said before, we are all screwed. There is no solution that will make everybody happy, thats why we have these guys on here making ignorant statements like they do. They are angry, as I am, that they get abused and nobody cares. Then, when a carrier is in trouble, they expect that carrier to take it in the nuts for them when they were never willing to do the same for the carrier in trouble. And the race continues. The only solution for this would be when one carrier is getting screwed on their contract negotiations, whipsawed or otherwise, the entire regional pilot group puts their foot down and walks off the job with the carrier in trouble. If we could put something like that together, that might work. Nobody is willing to risk their job. Its illegal to strike so maybe we need a national, regional pilot sick day, to send a message to congress. Has it ever been tried before? Because whining about it hasnt worked yet. |
Originally Posted by Slats
(Post 1324984)
Yeah, I guess me and every other pilot group in contract negotiations feel the same way. :rolleyes:
actually, 9e would be cheaper than GoJetzzzz Munk. So, please give me some hard facts as to how "we" would benefit from your TA passing? I care more about pay, not airplanes. |
Originally Posted by MunkyButtr
(Post 1325048)
I'm not going to waste my time with you slats. The fact that you've not seen the TA that we are voting on nor do you know anything about the gojets (self-admittedly) contract proves you are a lost cause. 9E will not be cheaper than gojets, in fact they will not be cheaper than shuttle either. thanks for the entertainment though.
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Originally Posted by CheckPower
(Post 1324450)
ShyGuy, Im sure you have read some of my posts which gives you an idea of my point of view. I will ask you the same thing I have asked others to answer so I can better understand your point of view. Please answer honestly as if you were in our situation.
If you had the choice: A) Keep your job a little while longer to build up your flight time, get your ATP to make yourself more marketable and all the other perks in the TA plus $2000 for 0-1st year longevity, save the aircraft we have left from going to S5 and Gojets which lowers the bar even more for your next negotiations. OR B) Become unemployed What would you personally choose? And yes this is a direct question for you to answer, a simple A or B will suffice. And while were at it, I will repost the other two questions I posed to another member here. 1) If you were making $75K to $120k per year, would you be so eager to give that up for the sake of the industry and the good of other pilots? Just curious, an honest yes or no answer please with an explanation if you dont mind. Thanks 2) Also, in all sincerity, could you explain how it will benefit the industry when our airplanes go to a carrier that will fly them for less than we can, even with our concessionary TA? Keep in mind that three other carriers have already bid for our flying in the event the TA doesnt pass and they are cheaper than us with our TA. Instead of incendiary remarks like yours, and others, why dont you try to come up with a solution and share that with us? These kind of remarks do nothing to sway my vote. Its comments like these that will keep us segregated forever and further the divide that exists. Perhaps that is what you want? I know that is what mainline/management does to whipsaw us and here you are doing the same thing. The only reason I can see that non-9E NoVoters have, to pursue the negativity, is that it threatens your career because 9E will still be in competition with you and you will not have all of our planes. You see a weak carrier (9E) getting bent over with this TA and instead of trying to help us get through it you only hold the door open to the slaughter house for us. The lack of unity we share as regional pilots is our downfall. You ask for me to hold the line for you and the best you can come up with is telling me that I am accepting bribe money. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1325080)
It is bribe money to get it passed. 65% of the group is going to be unemployed. That is fact, regardless of if this TA passes, 65% are gone. I left 9E a lil while ago, but if I was still there, I'd vote no. Say NO to the bribe money being slanted for the senior side. Think about it, who needs more money, a guy going from $105k to 80k or a guy going from 85k to 39k. This is just like the classic money grab case from the seniors 9E TA #1.
And for those who are saying go jets is more expensive then 9e and only reference the pay scales you are forgetting a lot of our work rules are still in place. we have Min day, pay protection, JA pay ......... There are still a lot of the "soft" money that was untouched. Not that it will make up for the pay cuts but please make sure to look at the whole picture. |
I would quit after I made them train me. Just to stick the costs on them because they pay less the other 737 operators. |
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1325103)
This is totally not the same thing at all. As a FO, you you're gonna lose your job. Regardless of what happens with the TA, a FO will not be flying 9E planes soon. And most FOs, if they stay in the industry, will be making lateral moves. Not much hiring at the LCCs/Legacies. Lateral move to another regional, and you don't need the negative affects of a concessionary TA to haunt you.
By the way congrats on the Virgin job. I am sick of filling out applications. I am trying to not go to another regional. Skywest contacted me about filling our a questionnaire but I do not think I will be doing that. |
So much for being able to bid for flying from other majors. Who would award the flying to 9E if they are a wholly owned of Delta?
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy
(Post 1325103)
I would quit after I made them train me. Just to stick the costs on them because they pay less the other 737 operators. |
Originally Posted by DL31082
(Post 1325167)
So much for being able to bid for flying from other majors. Who would award the flying to 9E if they are a wholly owned of Delta?
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So much for being able to bid for flying from other majors. Who would award the flying to 9E if they are a wholly owned of Delta? I really can't believe that FOs or soon to be FOs would vote yes to this. Are people really looking at this and what's going to happen. Much of what Shy Guy is saying is right. 65% will be on the street and the only other airline jobs that will be available are regionals. If the AA/US merger goes through it will mean even less jobs! So the union tells us that being current is very important in job hunting, ok that is true, but in a year from now when many are being laid off and there are no jobs available your not going to be current! Guys wake up there is not going to be massive hiring in the next 2 years. The majors are already finding ways to get around hiring due to the new rest rules. Look around forget about the majors, look at other places like Southern Cargo: bankrupt Evergreen: bankrupt World: bankrupt North American: bankrupt Virgin: not looking good Miami Air: very limited hiring Spirit: the only hope for 1000 being laid off (if your qualified) I name these airlines because these are places an FO with decent time could apply to for a step up. If you want to keep flying it will more then likely be at another regional. |
Originally Posted by DL31082
(Post 1325167)
So much for being able to bid for flying from other majors. Who would award the flying to 9E if they are a wholly owned of Delta?
We will not be allowed to fly for anyone else which will limit our growth capabilities immensely. This is one of the factors which weighs very heavy on the way I will be voting. |
The majors will be hiring over the next couple of years and then the hiring will be going up year over year for 10 years. People keep thinking that 65% will furloughed. That would never be the case since they are keeping about 1100 pilots to fly 81 CRJ900's. The remaining 1300 pilots would only be furloughed if there was 0 movement between Aug 2013-2015 (Time frame for wind down). This is not likely. Whats more likely is that between now and 2015, 1500 pilots will leave. Will the movement be from the top, probably not most will be from the middle and probably from the bottom. The fact is that this TA not passing will speed up the 200's leaving and the 900's will leave. This will ensure that sometime in 2014 everyone is gone and that will guarantee that probably as many as 70% of the group will get furloughed. Take a deep breath and vote logically not emotionally.
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Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1325256)
The majors will be hiring over the next couple of years and then the hiring will be going up year over year for 10 years. People keep thinking that 65% will furloughed. That would never be the case since they are keeping about 1100 pilots to fly 81 CRJ900's. The remaining 1300 pilots would only be furloughed if there was 0 movement between Aug 2013-2015 (Time frame for wind down). This is not likely. Whats more likely is that between now and 2015, 1500 pilots will leave. Will the movement be from the top, probably not most will be from the middle and probably from the bottom. The fact is that this TA not passing will speed up the 200's leaving and the 900's will leave. This will ensure that sometime in 2014 everyone is gone and that will guarantee that probably as many as 70% of the group will get furloughed. Take a deep breath and vote logically not emotionally.
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Originally Posted by hemaybedid
(Post 1324979)
People need to look at the GoJet payscale
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Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1325256)
The majors will be hiring over the next couple of years and then the hiring will be going up year over year for 10 years. People keep thinking that 65% will furloughed. That would never be the case since they are keeping about 1100 pilots to fly 81 CRJ900's. The remaining 1300 pilots would only be furloughed if there was 0 movement between Aug 2013-2015 (Time frame for wind down). This is not likely. Whats more likely is that between now and 2015, 1500 pilots will leave. Will the movement be from the top, probably not most will be from the middle and probably from the bottom. The fact is that this TA not passing will speed up the 200's leaving and the 900's will leave. This will ensure that sometime in 2014 everyone is gone and that will guarantee that probably as many as 70% of the group will get furloughed. Take a deep breath and vote logically not emotionally.
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Originally Posted by whoareyou311
(Post 1325334)
As I think through and try to figure out possible scenarios varying from the absolute worst to the absolute best case scenario...I keep coming back to something like this if the TA passes...I am sorry SHYGUY, but you are out of touch with what is going on, or what is about to happen in the industry..there are some places hiring at a pretty good rate right now..spirit and us air are hiring at a pretty good rate and expect to ramp that up!
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Originally Posted by whoareyou311
(Post 1325334)
As I think through and try to figure out possible scenarios varying from the absolute worst to the absolute best case scenario...I keep coming back to something like this if the TA passes...I am sorry SHYGUY, but you are out of touch with what is going on, or what is about to happen in the industry..there are some places hiring at a pretty good rate right now..spirit and us air are hiring at a pretty good rate and expect to ramp that up!
Comair, Southern, Pinnacle, evergreen ,North American, World etc etc are all furloughing. Us Air and Spirit hiring are not even going to come close to fixing this problem. Look many guys are trying to find the light at the end of the tunnel and trying to make this Pinnacle situation better in their heads. Shy is not out of touch with reality in this case. He's giving you one side of what could very well happen, and then other guys are saying he's out of touch he's not in this case. I'm voting no not to STFD, I'm voting no because this TA is crap and its not right. How much of a pay it did Spandex take? Oh he got a raise, but a 41$ FO has to take a cut is pure BS. |
Hopefully the Spanjers regime goes away after all is said and done. They are not in the sense managers who can grow an airline. Was worse with Foley when he was at the helm. Steered us right over the cliff.
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Originally Posted by BillyBaroo
(Post 1325587)
Hopefully the Spanjers regime goes away after all is said and done. They are not in the sense managers who can grow an airline. Was worse with Foley when he was at the helm. Steered us right over the cliff.
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Those airlines you mentioned that are furloughing are not very big. If you vote no to the TA you will achieve one thing, helping delta save money by transferring flying to an airline like Go Jets that is new enough that they offer cheap feed. You may think you deserve more pay and maybe you do but there are others willing to do it for less. Delta and company will use them and you and other like you will be forced to find work elsewhere. Some at another regional paying very little as a first year FO. I repeat THINK STRATEGICALLY.
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Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1325749)
Those airlines you mentioned that are furloughing are not very big. If you vote no to the TA you will achieve one thing, helping delta save money by transferring flying to an airline like Go Jets that is new enough that they offer cheap feed. You may think you deserve more pay and maybe you do but there are others willing to do it for less. Delta and company will use them and you and other like you will be forced to find work elsewhere. Some at another regional paying very little as a first year FO. I repeat THINK STRATEGICALLY.
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Originally Posted by vilcas
(Post 1325749)
If you vote no to the TA you will achieve one thing, helping delta save money by transferring flying to an airline like Go Jets that is new enough that they offer cheap feed.
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
(Post 1325783)
Not if more start voting "no", and it has to start somewhere.
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At pinnacle they can't even get the pilots to wear a uniform that they are paid money to wear. Must be nice to do your job poorly and complain you are not paid more. When did North Face jackets become part of the uniform.
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