Disclosing Checkride Busts
 

My friend had a interview with RAH, and has two checkride failures, but he told me he told them he had none. Is there a way from them to find out?

His old logbook from his part 91 days was destroyed, so the checkrides are not in there.

They will pull his PRIA and they will be on there. If he actually has 2 failures they will catch it and probably fire him.

Depends on the type of check ride busted.

He'll probably get fired not for failing a checkride, but for not disclosing it...

Yup. I assume this is during training, so if it's 141, it won't show up. If it's 61 or 142, it will. I hope this was just a "friend".

Someone said on the PRIA, it's online 121 busts, type rating busts etc.

And yeah it's my old CFI

They will request a copy of his entire file from the FAA. If he ever got a pink slip on a checkride, it will be in there. As long as no pink slip involved then they won't find out. If he wants to see what the FAA has, all you have to do is write Oklahoma City and they will send the entire file. Takes a couple of weeks and costs like .05 a page.

Always a good idea to do this before any interview so you can see exactly what is in there. I know a guy who interviewed with a regional and got the job, only to find out in training a DE had sent an erroneous pink slip in on him. It came up in the PRIA check, and fortunately he was able to prove otherwise with his logbook so they let him stay in class.

FOIA will get all busts including General Aviation, this is what most airlines are using now, PRIA only gets busts that happened while flying professionally. Basically a PRIA just pulls your training records from former employers.

I thought 121 training records only go back 5 years unless there is an 8710?

What airlines request foia records?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md...3z3lo1_500.gif

:p

RAH does for sure.

Always disclose everything.
Good read on what is contained in PRIA:
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/lic_cert/p...esentation.ppt

I can't believe pilots are lying and asking what airlines ask for FOIA to find out about private/instrument/commcercial failures. Man up and admit your failures. Otherwise, you're sack of ***** that give the rest of us a bad name. And if an accident happens, you'll be smeared just like the Colgan Captain was. You want that on your family?

From the Advisory Circular:

NOTE: Hiring employers may use a request with a signed consent by the
pilot/applicant to authorize the FAA to release records of Notices of
Disapproval for flight checks for certificates and ratings to an air carrier
making such a request.

Page 14.

Again, this has nothing to do with me.

Every regional I have interviewed with including Republic had you fill out paperwork that gives them access to all your FAA records.

In a nutshell, they will get all your flying training records from previous employers for the last 5 years, anything that is in the National Driver Database (like habitual DUIs, Reckless driving, etc), and everything the FAA has on you. Medicals, pink slips or any action taken on your certificate. If you're worried about what they have, you can get all this information yourself before you interview.

Thats what you give them permission to do when you sign all the stuff in that big packet HR sends you.

Aren't you the guy on JC that has like five failures?

No, I don't have five failures.

Did they ask him during his interview? They don't ask for it during the application?

I'm Not sure.

Yes, this is correct.

The only question here is does RAH do a FOIA request on all new hires?

Yes = 100% fired.

I would actually suggest that the person under discussion simply not accept this job, unless he can confirm that RAH does not do FOIA requests. Otherwise it's almost a sure thing that he'll be terminated from a 121 carrier for lying...safe to assume that's a career killer.

If they catch you lying to them they will send you home so fast your head will spin. Every new hire class I have been in a couple seats suddenly became vacant after a few weeks do to background checks.
A honest answer during the interview and ownership of the situation in most cases would have resulted in a non issue.

Just curious, what does your airman file include when you order it or an employer requests the full file through FOIA? Do you get actual copies of your 8710s, medicals, and IACRA information? Or is it just a summary showing your certificates held, failures if any, etc...?

It is a photocopy of everything the FAA has ever been sent. 8710s, temp certificates, written exams, pink slips, etc. I was amazed when I got mine and it included a private written exam score I had taken while in high school in 1987. Medical will be a photocopy of anything that the FAA has been sent on you medically. Any supporting information from a Doctor, forms etc.

As I said earlier, its not a bad idea to request this yourself so you can see what is in the FAA file. They charge 5 cents a copy and it takes a couple of weeks to get. You have to make seperate requests for the entire FAA file, medical files, and a statment of any enforcement actions against you.

Kinda like the folks who ask if a training contract is enforceable.

Thanks for the info! I think Im going to order mine now just to see whats in it. Now that I think about it, its just like getting your credit report before applying for a loan. We should all be doing this before applying for a job just to be sure and prepared for any questions that may come up.

Really?! If you know you have no busts or anything else incriminating; Why? If they have some type of erroneous data that prevents you from getting the job, I would think you have a rock solid case of governmental defamation of character. I know going to court would suck, but the outcome could be quite generous. Lost wages (including career potential), defamation, and mental stress could potentially equate to a generous settlement. I would be willing to gamble one single job offer on the outcome of the case.

I stand corrected, you only have THREE checkride failures.

If one wishes to be reactive, then your plan is fine. I would rather check in advance of application for any inaccuracies. I don't think my government is out to get me, but considering that humans are inputting the information and I share the name of several other pilots, I check my file regularly.

If you are correct, that is his issue. Let him be. If you are correct, he will be found, if you are wrong you are casting shadows on an innocent person.

First of all, it is not a "plan." It is simply a response to a question that I feel is unnecessary. You say you don't think the government is out to get you, but in the same sentence, you want to pay the government $money$ to make sure they aren't making mistakes. I guess what I am trying to say is don't be so paranoid! If they are to blame, they would pay dearly for their "inaccuracies." I would almost be willing to bet that one would get a higher paid "out of court settlement" than the job is worth!

Well, I would rather pay a few bucks to insure I am protected. If you would rather roll the dice, be my guest. I have paid 20 years of auto insurance to insure I was protected even though I haven't caused a crash in the same period. Maybe you think that is foolish as well.

By the way, have you looked into how hard it is sue the federal government? How big is your war chest?

Your comparison of auto insurance is waaaaaaaay out of whack! Driving is obviously a calculated risk. All insurance companies use the stat of 30% of all drivers will be involved in a serious accident in their lifetime! Secondly, suing a federal body for providing false information is SUPER easy. In fact, there is about a 99% chance they would concede immediately if they knew they were at fault. In this conversation, I was just posing a simple question, but you seem to want to argue to the death. In this discussion, I promise I will win every time. My initial quote is iron clad!

Okay, good for you that you have such confidence in your counsel.

Actually, my comparison of auto insurance is spot on: humans make mistakes. I have no idea of what the error rate is for data entry folks, but I'm sure somewhere it exists. While those working in a room in OakCity won't kill anyone with their mistakes, it could prevent me from getting a job (or at least make me jump through hoops to get a lower seniority number).

Look, I'm not angry with your position. I simply prefer to be proactive rather than hoping litigation will prove my point.

Do what you want. I have given my argument supporting my opinion. There is no "correct" way. I always see an optometrist prior to my medical to insure my eyes are still 20/20 rather than showing up at my ME and having him tell me I need glasses.

For the record, I'm not paranoid. But I do remember playing "Telephone" in elementary school. The reality is that every time a human receives and passes on information, there is a degradation in accuracy.

To me, spending a few bucks (if I recall correctly, $3 plus five cents per page) is a whole lot better insurance for my next career step than hoping everything is correct, and suing if it isn't.

You have officially taken this to the next level. Which wasn't the intent. "Confidence in my counsel" sounds like a 3rd grader. Your comparison to auto is just as pathetic. The FAA says their input error is roughly 1 in 10,000. It sounds like OCD has set in for you. I guess you win. I'm done.

If, as you say, the error rate is 1 in 10,000, then consider this: according to APC there are 65000 pilots in the legacy and LCC category. That means 6 or 7 of them have bogus information in their file. Add to that the other 50,000 pilots flying cargo and regional. If what the FAA says is correct, there are around 12 pilots in those airlines who have erroneous information.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. But do you really want to be one of those who has an error?

IMHO, if I were submitting an application to a company, I would want to be sure. If you don't, then Do Not check your records. That is your call.

HEY! there is that litigious American culture :rolleyes:
If it ERRONEOUS - maybe it is an ERROR.
Governmental defamation of character huh? Is that an actual legal ruling.
Are you sure defmation doesn't have some aspect of intent associated?
Like any data that any agency collects on an indivdual - it is good to make sure that t is correct.

[QUOTE=Beech90;1345324]My friend had a interview with RAH, and has two checkride failures, but he told me he told them he had none. Is there a way from them to find out?
His old logbook from his part 91 days was destroyed, so the checkrides are not in there.[/QUOTE)


Your friend just made a serious mistake. More than likely he will get a tap on the shoulder at some point during his indoc and asked to pack his bags and leave. Remember the "be of good moral character" requirement for the ATP? Lying on an application is always grounds for termination in my experience. I would do what Rickair suggested and withdraw the application.

You can't break wind during a hurricane without someone finding out in this business!

Yeah Really! Why not spend $15 to save months of grief? We are professionals (even though most of us are not paid as such) and should act like it. Yes you would have grounds for a lawsuit but so what,? thats part of whats wrong with America!! (I'll SUE) If we made a better effort to prevent problems instead of being reactive our world wouldn't be the way it is now. Now people will not even act to help someone because they are afraid of being sued, really!