James, I agree that you should do what is of benefit to the student, although I will argue part of the reason we agree to instruct for low wages is because we're being paid partly in flight hours. Don't go out of your way to make it XC at the detriment of the student, but be smart about it too, even within a 141 syllabus you can get it done. I'm not saying force it, but if you can easily make it happen in a way that's beneficial for the student too, go for it. Just to give you a typical example of Phoenix from Deer Valley... If I have two students, I'll take off, we go do the GPS 4R at KCHD, the ILS 5 at KCGZ, maybe VOR 5 KCGZ, and the VOR 5 to P08. Swap students at P08. Second student flies GPS 30L to KIWA, ILS 30C KIWA, VOR-C KSDL, and maybe the GPS 25L at KDVT. You can mix and match it, but there's actually very little straight and level time, we're going from approach to approach, and I try and change it up and make sure the students are doing different approaches as much as practical. (Although I try and make sure the students get a little breathing room in between approaches, going too hectic with it can just be frustrating to the student and is a detriment to learning.) If I have just one student and a shorter flight, I usually can't make it XC, and that's okay, but when you have the opportunity find a smart way to do it.

Most self-pay students need the 50 XC for the instrument rating anyway. At ATP, I got all the XC time for the instrument rating during my training for the rating itself.

 

I did most of my training and my first 500 hours of instructing out of a Class C airport in the midwest. We could do 7 different approaches and a few holds without ever going more than 10 miles from the airport and that's usually how we did things in order to save time and money. Commercial cross countries and time building were almost all solo so I had no way to log time on those. I had 700TT and about 100XC or maybe a bit less when I moved to PHX.

I got down to P08 as much as possible by volunteering for cross countries but I had a lot of instrument students and during instrument training it was kind of a waste of time. There's no sense in making a Chinese guy fly 40 miles out of the way to do a VOR approach to P08 that he'll never do on a checkride. TransPac was really about training students to pass a checkride, not training them to fly a variety of approaches. Sad but true.

Had I stayed in the midwest as an instructor I probably would have had about 100 XC when I hit 1500TT. PHX is what helped me build the XC.

 

Sooo, what job doesn't give you work experience while you are getting paid? I know we take the jobs we can find, but that attitude is killing us. Why should major airlines pay a lot if they are providing experience you are going to use when you apply to Fed Ex or UPS? Why should Fed Ex pay a lot if it's experience you'll use to apply as a Boeing test pilot? You are not being "paid" in flight hours and no one should ever tell you that. If they do, you need to kindly correct them.

If you can work the flight so you get the 50 miles, great. A student being able to do 4 approaches in succession is pretty amazing and probably doesn't last for long (because if they can do it, they are ready for their checkride). But yep, you can be creative and often get the distance. Two students is a way it might work out. Volunteering to take any and all XCs is another good way. This can really tax you and cut into your "off time", but it's one of those things that is worth it. Mine took more than 1500 hours, I'll say that much.

 

It is not so bad if you plan ahead. For an example I have roughly about 250 hours of cross counties to go. Maybe we should all set goals. Here is my goal: fly 15-20 hours of cross countries a month. Hopefully more. It is very realistic and can be done without being unethical. Which means I should be in good shape in 12-16 months. Ouch. I never thought I'd be instructing for 2-3 years! The game has changed so we have to adapt. By then I would have well over 1500 hours. The other option is to of course find a part 135 gig somewhere. For those new CFIs entering the field bank on working for at least 2 years.

 

I think we are all way over analyzing this whole thing trying to be the ethics police and armchair lawyers and such. Getting a XC under your belt is only a matter of 50 miles, even with an few approaches this can be done in less than 2 hours if you have another airport close enough. I know what your going to say, "But 'I' don't have one that close. I'm just talking in generalities here. There are plenty of things that can be discussed on the 30-40 min cruise portion of a short XC!

I'd be willing to bet if you just talk to your students about it, they would be willing to go an extra .3 or .4 to get that XC in THIER logbook as well, especially if they are planning on making flying a career. If they are, they will need the 500 XC also.

When I was working on my instrument I insisted my instructor make the flights XC because I knew I would need it and I wanted the experience. Doing the same ILS and VOR approach 40 times then taking a check ride on that same ILS is doing nobody any good.

 

Good idea. I'm sure career oriented students would be 100% behind this idea.

For the other students, you could actually discuss this situation with them and see if they would be willing to go a few extra tenths. This is not entirely unreasonable since a career-oriented CFI's PRIMARY compensation is the flight experience needed to move on. If you're freelance you may more flexibility, including the option of discounting some of the instructor time involved.

But ethically it's a no-go to make significant changes to student training profiles, without the student's knowledge, just because the ATP reg changed. That's not their fault or their problem.

Plan B: Go do 135 night freight at 1200 hours.

 

It's not that uncommon. I was a CFI for 3 years from 2008-2011 because all of the airlines furloughed. Even CFI jobs were really hard to get. Next time the airlines furlough the same thing will happen to anyone who is a new CFI at that time.

 

We are class C airspace with another class C airspace 26 miles away... Plus 3 D airspaces within the radius of 15 miles.... And if that is not enough two uncontrolled airports in the vicinity as well! In total over 40 possible approaches. In our school we backseat so taking two students at a time is out of the question. Hopefully by the time I have 3000 TT I will get my 500 XC time as well

 

Used to be everybody knew they were going to have to do that.


This used to be step 2, after you worked as a CFI.

Step 3 was a regional, usually with 3000+ hours and turbine time.

The 1500 hour rule really just puts the system back to where it used to be, and prevents high-demand bubbles from causing airlines to lower their standards below what is reasonable for airline pilots.

 

If the system goes back to the way it was, I sure hope pay goes back to the way it was. Cause flight instructing used to pay a lot better than it did now .. well, it was about the same, but adjusted for inflation, it was a lot more money.