Nope we'll be trying to hire. Trying.

I guess that many have left not too? When do the 200s go away?

Parking of 200s has been delayed for remainder of the year at least...possibly longer since the parking of the 200s is directly tied with delivery of the 717s from AirTran which has been subsequenty delayed (I guess SWA still needed them). As for rumors...Ive heard everything under the sun from no furloughs planned at all now, possible hiring, more 700/900s and even such rumors that we may keep a few 200s since 9E is so cheap now. Believe it when it happens.

They tried it at Pinnacle. The union let them since the company came back with there wasn't anything in the contract that prevented them from offering extra. Result: Guys came in, worked for six month, got their couple of bonuses (for completeing training and staying 6 months) then went to Skywest, ExpressJet or ASA.

So you should come ahead of other 2007 FOs at, say, ExressJet, because your gamble of staying at Pinnacle didn't work out? How's that fair? You should have left when the warning signs were clear. I'll give you carrying longevity for pay purposes, but not seniority. It isn't fair to leaprfrog in schedules/upgrade ahead of current other airline pilots because yours took a turn for the worst and you decided to stay on the sinking ship. I will give you longevity transfer, but management could hire a newbie instead of paying you 5 years worth. Nothing stops that.


Depends. Are you losing 140 airplanes in the next few years. Or, as the latest rumor has it, will these stick around even longer, negating all the job threats given to pass the concessionary contract.

Ah, the National Seniority List rears its ugly head from a predictable corner--the pilots at a failed carrier.

GF

Collectively pilots don't see big picture even thought individually they might. There will never be anything done for the greater good.

A national seniority list isn't feasible, but a longevity list (carry pay over at applicable level) could be. Problem is, then the airlines don't have to hire a 7th RJ guy at 7th year salary. They'll just take a newbie with 1-2 years longevity.

In any case, unions have made the seniority system what it is today, for better and for worse.

I'm not really interested in getting in between the Colgan and pinnacle/Mesaba flame war here but, I would like to point one thing out.
If you receive a benefit small or windfall, you should recognize it. Be humble and not throw it in people's faces. If you deny that you received a benefit and claim that it's rightly your seat or plane or whatever, you come off as a douche bag. Don't defend a piece of garbage, acknowledge it for what it is.

717s are going to be coming online at least a month late, so that delays the deliveries of the 900, which delays the parking of the 200s.

I agree it gets old. I'm guilty. But much of the talk comes from the result of every "successful" airline applying pressure of said failed carrier to fall on the sword and hold out for Skywest's coveted second year FO pay as 2000 pilots hit the street looking for a job.

Well guess what:

1) we aren't a union
2) we can't transfer seniority/longevity
3) we'd rather keep our jobs for a few more months

Does anyone really think you'd get a jet at Skywest? lol! It'll take 4+ years at any average regional to get to the wage rate we are making as topped out FOs. And I care about 0% about helping a non-union carrier - Skywest, keep good payrates. lolol!

ShyGuy should know more than anyone about working at a non-union carrier undercutting the industry... lol!

Just spit-balling here...

The biggest hindrance is the the structure of the pay scales themselves. Why do we have regional payscales that take 18 years to mature?
ALPA should focus on two things: A) Having payscales that mature a hell of a lot quicker; like 5 years (but mature to the same values) And B) Getting national pay scales for the same equipment. Soft money can be left up to the individual pilot groups to negotiate. But if your airline wants to fly a CRJ-200 or 757, the pay scale would be the same for all carriers. Uncle Phil couldn't just bend his next pilot group over with crappy pay rates; wipe his **** off on the curtains when he's done and leave with a nice golden parachute.

Just sayin'...

Cencal, 70/HR second year, right behind United, Delta, and Jetblue. Higher than Allegiant, Spirit, Frontier, so I'd say it's right in the middle. That's not undercutting anyone. And you are a yes voter, so you're the last person who has any right to beotch about non-union airlines like Skywest or VX. You voted you aren't worth 43.50/HR, you thought 37/HR was good enough. You'd fly for free if it meant keeping currency. Talk with your feet or you have no right laughing about Skywest or VX when you voted yes to make 9E the next Mesa.

Right behind Delta? Like 30% behind. :rolleyes:

Well, if you want to nitpick :p

I'd like to nitpick slats video: (clearly an ERJ)

A tribute to Delta and Skywest Airlines - YouTube

Right behind aka next in line order. It was listed highest and on down. I don't think Delta pay for a 52 airplane operation is realistic, so within the same scope, aka Spirit, Allegiant, and Frontier, VX is competitive.

And the song used is about masterbation.

Yeah but can you do this? I'm getting close.

World Record for Kicking Self in Head - YouTube

I'm waiting for mgmt to try and use this line... "FO pay is next in line for the highest paid job in the cockpit, it's right behind the CA pay, yet can still be above FA pay!"

A margin of error is one thing, but you are saying that if a family in the 98% of income in the USA is only 1% away from the top 99%... But it's so close, yet so far! 50% of the time you can be right 100% of the time on the true/false portion of the test.

nevermind....................................

Doug Parker put his own spin on it. Shortly after US/AW merged, he said something to the affect of "Gone are the days of getting paid more to fly bigger planes; a cockpit is a cockpit"

You make a good point. You lost your base, your airplane, heck even you airline, but yet not only are you still employed, you are a captain. I was simply disagreeing with a longevity transition and gave a real life example of why it wouldn't work. Absolutely zero pity will or has been felt for your loss of base or airplane. You actually got a pay raise when you lost your base and your airplane. The sad part about Pinnacle parking 200's is that once again, the Colgan captains will still have a job. Meanwhile Pinnacle AND Mesaba FO's have zero future here. What we are going through at Pinnacle is the exact reason longevity transition would never work and every other airline knows it.

PS. Jamers, sorry if I made it personal. I still have triggers for this kind of stuff.

Best post in a long time!

Quickest finish in a loooong time

Seemed to work well for Colgan pilots.

You really don't understand the concept of a longevity transfer. Longevity and seniority have nothing to do with each other. The idea of a national longevity list is that if you were to say get furloughed from one carrier after 5 years, you would keep your longevity for pay purposes only. You would still be at the bottom of the seniority list at your new carrier but you would be at year 5 on the pay scale. That way you don't have to endure first year FO pay again or take as big of a pay cut.

People really have a hard time understanding that seniority and longevity are two totally separate things.

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but what motivation would an airline have to hire high longevity pilots under this scheme? You guys act like you have management over a barrel.

Longevity=pay&benefits (what costs management)
Seniority=seat, schedule, and equipment (what costs pilots)

National lists of either one are never going to happen. Too many people have too much to lose.

Isn't that a socialist idea. Why should a private company be forced give new hires added longegivy? Not very capitalistic of you :confused:

I agree, so in essence a 25 year RJ CA could go over to a FEDEX, DAL or any other ALPA carrier and start as a maxed out FO?

Couldn't see any company allowing this into a contract during negotiations

Not sure what the pilots would lose with a National Longevity list; the only losers would be the companies. Its the same basic concept of what trade unions like Electricians do so that you don't take a pay cut when you go to work for another company. The only way it would work is if it didn't take so long for a pay scale to mature. Also, it would require a national union to negotiate it into all the airline contracts. It really is just a theoretical way to solve a problem that this industry has where you are not compensated for your experience.

It probably never will be successful; I was just trying to explain a basic concept to someone that lacked knowledge. The concept of the difference between longevity and seniority seems to be lost on a lot of pilots (especially when a merger happens).

The airlines have never been in a free market, otherwise employee groups wouldn't be forced to negotiate under the RLA and submit to the whims of the NMB. If the free market was actually allowed, bankruptcy wouldn't allow contracts to get tossed and pilots could demand what they are worth. We would also never see regionals as mainline pilots would be able to strike at their discretion to put an end to them.

You're right. It would be a windfall for the pilots, and the companies would lose. Which is why, as you stated, it will never happen. "Real" unions can get away with this because they have their industry cornered. They supply all of the labor. If you're in a major city, building a skyscraper, you can't do it without the unions. Not only are airline pilots a dime a dozen, we have an "Association of independent MECs" representing us (not a "union", and worse, most pilots would sell their own mother out to either make more money or move up the ladder. This is why it will never work here.

Ohhh my GOD

Who the **** is the homo who made this??? Has his name been leaked to the Skywest pilot group???

WOW.

For the same reason in the private workforce an employee is worth more with more experience. For example, an entry level engineer will start at a entry level engineer pay. But 5-10 years later, if he leaves the company to go to another company, he doesn't get entry-level pay at that company. He gets 5-10 years experience worth salary. Unfortunately, the unions have made the seniority system as hard lined as it is today, and I don't ever see a national longevity list.

I agree, this has nothing to do with socialism. It is about getting paid what you are worth and what your experience commands. If we lived in a true capitalistic country there would be no regulations and airlines could do whatever they wanted to. This would drive low end airlines to hire low end pilots (and pay them minimum wage) as well as cut corners on maintenance. This would result in airframe losses and loss of life. These companies would then be unable to get insurance, would have a problem selling tickets and they would go out of business. Airlines that wanted to stay in business would hire experienced pilots, train them appropriately and pay them appropriately (even if it meant paying a first year pilot with 10K hours 100K). I'm not understanding how paying a pilot according to their experience is now socialism?

The ending credits say that the photos were taken by and the pilot was Joseph Trev.

Mods, don't go ballistic with the name in public. It's on the video that is in a public domain. If he wanted to remain anonymous, he should have, but he didn't want to.

He says in the comments he never said he was a skywest pilot so it could be just some kid that is in love with skywest.

Easy with the homophobic rhetoric buddy. We all share different interests in aviation, and if the video bothered you, don't watch it or offer substantive criticism.

How do you know he meant it to be homophobic? He might have mean homosapien.