This is true, why would management after saying pass this or get shut down, have they kept coming back. Why is they have other feeders for the aircraft have they not made the announcement of the deal, would this not scare the eagle pilots to capitulate?

They make threats everyday to the pilots and union leaders. We have hearing about the demise of eagle now for non stop 6 years. The only thing that has happened is we have downsized due to parking the e135/140's. Management wants an additional concessionary contract on top of the bankruptcy contract for the aircraft that are coming to eagle anyway.

It is AAG who is running out of time, they have to start to schedule the deliveries of the aircraft and the bases and routes they will fly on top of the training required here at eagle.

The pilots at eagle should find there spine, stand straight and loudly with a high percentage VOTE NO.


VOTE NO and vote often

If that was the case, why did those guys abstain??

It makes more sense what Buddies is saying. The MEC knows about these airplanes or other things that will affect every pilot at Eagle. If so they should be telling us. It makes sense why the sudden change on their stance from NO to let the pilots decide. They get rid of the responsibility if this junk doesn't pass, while still looking good. Pure political games.

We need to demand for answers.

We need to vote no. Bringing this to the pilots gives us another 2 weeks of more pilot shortage news.

If we vote no, then we still gaining time. Time put pressure over AAG to bring those planes over eagle or AA, nobody will be able to grow a company so fast (9 months) to start accepting new aircraft. Look at RAH still have to deliver half of their AA 175 contract. They have to park planes to get these new birds flying.

Who will do it?

It was explained by the NY reps in their base blast. Basically, AAG management, the ORD reps, and AETC reps did not believe that the rest of the reps represented the will of the majority of the pilots. Management thinks that it will pass a pilot vote and that the "No" reps are blocking their progress in cheapening our profession. The "No" reps abstained from voting rather than voting yes and appearing to support the TA. It is now up to us as a pilot group to stop this downward spiral and prove that those "No" reps DO represent our wishes.

On the ORD blast we were told that they voted yes because they "believe" that's what we want. The other bases say we don't support the TA because you have told us you don't want it. Big difference! Other bases have meetings and constant talks with the membership, in ORD we are discredited due to our emotions and we don't host meetings.

Precisely. The ORD reps need to go YESTERDAY!!

I would say, day before Yesterday. But the CA rep is dragging his feet to get the meeting done...

use the rules against him,
email him and the mec informing that you want the recall of him and any one else the base deems needs to go to be put on the agenda of the next meeting.
everyone in ord email this everyday to him and the mec chairman. mec chairman can force him to have a meeting, but be careful when he does it, last time they did on memorial weekend downtown at the ball field where there local a zz kissers would be in numbers and we only lost by 25 votes.

American bought these planes. American owns American Eagle (Envoy). Agreements to own and fly these airplanes must already be in place between the two companies otherwise purchase agreements probably wouldn't be signed. Big companies don't sign billion dollar deals without knowing the details.

Could American decide to give them to someone else? Sure they could, but they're not going to do that otherwise this vote would not be coming back around for round 2. Someone has been paid. I'm afraid the AE council must be pretty weak or succumbed to something sinister. What's in it for the council to change their minds?

Those airplanes have delivery dates and those manufacturers are going to want to get paid whether anyone is flying them or not. There is an urgency here and that is why you are seeing round 2 of this.

Don't PSA out now.

Why are some of you making such a big deal about sending the vote to the pilots? What's wrong with giving the pilots whom this TA will affect a chance to vote? Sure the fear of doom and gloom will come in play and there's a chance it will pass, but at least it'll be your own doing and not at the hands of the 9 reps that may or may not share your opinion.

XJT took an awesome stand. My buddies at republic are overwhelmingly against their new contract. We at PSA did sell out, no excuses. Hope you guys have 50% plus 1 that are willing to take the stand. I bet PDT and AWAC are very anxious to see how you guys vote. Best of luck to you guys and gals!

the biggest problem facing egl pilots is a new mgmt. at AAG on pace to make 3.5 Billion this year and 10 Billion in the bank. They are drunk with power and their egos are so inflated that intelligent decisions are off the table.
Shareholders will watch this destruction of equity because the future is so bright that you have to wear shades.

This is actually round 3. During round 1 the company wanted an all out B scale.

This union was busted from within. The company merely followed the lead they were given and refused to acknowledge the MEC as a group who accurately represented the pilots. After cleaning house internally, our union SHOULD have said "tough s..., we're the collective bargaining agent, deal with it". Instead, seeking to have their ability to accurately represent be validated, they came to the pilots to deliver the resounding NO vote which they know is inevitable.

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. So it goes for MECs as well. Two of our weak links were recently eliminated for going rogue and working a back room deal with the company without the MEC's knowledge or approval. One weak link who was most certainly involved in the plan remains and is in the process of being ousted. Another weak link who was probably not involved is resigning from union duty. After all that happens we should have a pretty clean shop!

Thanks! I am hoping for 90% or better but we'll see.

One could argue that it was your MEC, not your pilots who screwed you all over at PSA. If the MEC simply passes every worthless turd thrown their way at the pilots then what purpose do they serve?

Airline management is telling us they do not want or need airline pilots.

That statement may make no sense, but that is what these concession demands are... permanent C scale, that's your entire career outlook if you fall for it.

At some point we need to just believe them that they are not going to pay up and stop trying so hard to be there for them.

Yep, misery loves company!!!

a drowning man does not need a glass of water, and I would believe an airline management team why?

You misunderstood. I don't really believe them.

But if we say we do, if we give them everything they could possibly want in their wildest dreams, then basically no one will show up for this silliness anymore-- new pilots already have stopped showing up, and current pilots are leaving by the bushel. At XJT we have senior management asking (pleading?) for pilots to fly extra, because they have no present solution other than said pleading.

If the managements get what they want, they're the ones who are completely screwed, which is perfectly fine with me. They fail at that point, and the career joke is over. It is the backward logic of all of this that fails any test of intellectual review. It makes almost no sense, other than concessions are management's first, most stupid, most uncreative option for all problems. If they set contracts so far backward and so low that they cannot sustain the minimum required level of voluntary employment, then fine, game on. If there is no reason to show up, no one will. XJT management has no plan whatsoever for hiring or retention and Eagle management is trying to fool their people into a false belief of career advancement in exchange for surrender.

None of it works until a real career path is established, which is what none of these companies has done. Eagle may be closest, but not truly there yet. Eagle guys are closer to AA seniority numbers (today, not a flow-thru promise) than they yet realize. That should be the goal.

hold out for flow thru and better pay AE! The 4300 at XJT said no more! If you hold the line, that's over 7,000 pilots! Your and XJT mgmt. as well as RAH will hear that loudly! Now's not the time to compromise or equivocate. We have faith in you!

Can someone give me the link for the petition to recall Glenna

March 12, 2014

Base Visit – MIA

Fellow Pilots:

The TA base visits continued today in Miami.* Captains Sprague, Mark, Magee and Gardner were in attendance as well as Captain James Funderburk, and First Officer Ken Wells, Council 126 Representatives.* The Miami base visit was well attended.

On Saturday, March 15 the Dallas base visit will be conducted in the DFW crew room from 12noon until 5pm, and also on Sunday, March 16 from 9am until 12noon.* The Council 114 (Training Center) visit has been cancelled and will be rescheduled at the request of the 114 representative.* The NY base visits will be Thursday, March 20 in JFK from 9am until 3pm and Friday, March 21 in LGA from 10am until 4pm.** If possible, please stop by.* Refreshments will be served.

Pilot voting on the TA begins at 10:00am EDT on Thursday, the 13th of March and ends at 10:00am EDT on Friday, the 28th of March.* All active members in good standing are eligible to vote and voting will be conducted on the ALPA.org website.* Voting instructions will be made available in another communication prior to the start of voting.

John Gardner, Chairman

EGL ALPA Communication Committee

*

Company Communication

Yesterday, Pedro Fábregas released a communication addressed to the pilot group and today released a communication addressed to the First Officers.* The communication yesterday contained bullet points discussing the TA and the current agreement.* The communication today discusses the First Officer pay reduction schedule.* We encourage all pilots to read and study all available communications as we move into the TA voting period and weigh them for the value of their information.

Many of you have pointed out the third bullet point, “Guaranteed enhanced flow-through” in the March 10 communication.* That bullet contains language that is in addition to the company’s obligations under the TA.** Mr. Fábregas referenced a 50% figure of additional flow throughs above the first 30 in any month.* In any month when AA hires at least 30 pilots, the first 30 of those pilots will be flow throughs from Eagle.* For example, if AA hires 70 pilots in one month, 35 would be flow throughs.* If AA hired any number between 30 and 60 pilots, 30 would be flow throughs.

In addition to the “first 30” and “50%” provisions, there are “true-up” provisions.* If AA hires less than 120 pilots during the last 4 months of 2014, ALL of those pilots will be flow throughs from Eagle.* Effective January 2015, if AA hires 360 or more pilots in any calendar year, AA will hire at least 360 Eagle flow throughs.* If in any calendar year, AA hires less than 360 pilots, AA will be required to offer to Eagle flow throughs a number of positions equal to 100% of the total new hire positions for the year.*

Examples:

Example 1: As of March 31, 2017 AA has hired and entered into training 180 pilots in 2017 and 90 of those are Eagle flowthrough pilots.* Due to an unexpected change in its hiring plan, AA stops hiring on March 31 and does not hire and enter into training off-the-street for the remainder of 2017.* AA is obligated to hire and enter into training and Eagle is obligated to release at least an additional 90 Eagle flowthrough pilots during the remainder of 2017 even though this brings AA’s total hiring for 2017 to 270 or more.*

Example 2: As of March 31, 2017 AA has hired and entered into training 180 pilots in 2017 and 90 of those are Eagle flowthrough pilots.* Due to an unexpected change in its hiring plan, AA reduces its hiring on April 1, 2017 to 15 pilots per month.* AA is obligated to hire and enter into training and Eagle is obligated to release an additional 15 Eagle flowthrough pilots per month to achieve a total of 180 Eagle flowthrough pilots and will fill 100% of AA’s classes during the remainder of 2017 until that is achieved.

Company emails are a valuable source of information for all pilots.* As with all other sources of information, the source should be considered and the data carefully weighed for suitable application.* Any website, social media vehicle or other source which seeks to influence a vote, as opposed to simply informing the pilots, should be very carefully considered.

*


Air Line Pilots Association, International
Air Line Pilots Association, International

If you wish to unsubscribe, please click here to login and update your Standard Mailings/E-Mail Distribution Lists preferences.

ALPA is just a money scheme. Period. Reject any TA, stand tall, and stick together! Shut it down if necessary.

Why do the best posts go unrecognized on this forum? You are spot on. I'd say the regional airline business model is currently in checkmate.

My understanding is that pay and benefits are negotiated by the pilot union. I also understand that the top pilots will not give the new pilots a pay hike to the tune of double or triple current rates.

Thus, how do you propose management to improve this career?

Seems to me the PILOTS are the one killing their own young and blaming it on management. I could be wrong. But I have yet to hear talks from senior pilots giving up money for the new people (which I KNOW will NEVER happen).

There is one constant in this universe that typically rings true in a situation like this and that is supply and demand. Right now, if none of the variables are to change from their current state, things will get very interesting.

The airlines are just at the very leading edge of a shortage of willing or able pilots, just imagine how things might look in about 6 years when it is predicted we will be at the peak of the problem.

This bears repeating- there is nobody in the pipeline and that's where the real issue is.

In six years the regional airlines might not even exist. They only exist today so major airlines can farm out some work to B scale employees (you). Once there is no financial benefit for doing that, those airplanes and routes will be reabsorbed.

So are pilots killing their own profession? Well they sure aren't helping it. But if senior regional pilots want to keep on flying, they are going to need more junior pilots to sit next to them in that other seat.

I just voted no. I hope many will follow.

No vote submitted.............................

Voted No all the way

100% say they voted no

Votes come back 65% pass.

Have picture............wish i knew how to upload
The lazy will vote yes. Too lazy to go through the process to interview. Too lazy to lose a few pounds to appear presentable. Too lazy to prepare and study.
They can keep their flow. It's smoke and mirrors. I'll go get my own job.
Until then, SHOW ME THE MONEY.

My NO (against) vote is in!

What?

THE UNION is US, and we negotiate with mgt to get as much as we can. I guarantee that your Negotiating Committee has never told mgt "thanks for the offer, but that's too much." Should your company approach your union and say that they'd like to raise the pay for FOs, I really think your union would sign that LOA pretty fast.

If on the other hand your mgt were to approach your union and say we think our Capts are paid too much, and our FOs are paid too little, so we want our Capts and our FOs to all make ~$55/ hr, your union had better not sign that. That is GLA Capt. pay rates and they can't keep pilots either.

Regional FOs aren't overly compensated, but regional Capts aren't either. Taking from one to give to the other doesn't solve the problem.

Iowa Farm Boy,

Who comes up with the pay scale? Union or airline?

My understanding is that the union comes up with the pay scale. Is this not true? If it is true, then entertain this. Say the airline gives the union X currently. But they want to up the FO pay by giving the union X + Y. Will Y all go to FO or will senior captains complain that the FOs are getting a pay raise but they are not?

Given the captain pay scales, I don't think regional captains are underpaid. Captains are getting paid a liveable wage. If you're a captain and making over $100k, I have zero sympathy for you. If they want to make more, then they can move on to the legacies/majors and get that pay. My understanding of that is, many regional captains are fat and happy where they are given the pay/days off/schedule and are not happy about moving on because they'll take a pay cut and get back on reserve schedule. Sounds to me like they're getting paid enough at the regional to not move on.

Yes they absolutely will, and have, complained.

The whole company specific seniority based pay scales that airlines have adopted, in large part due to union negotiation, are bullshhh. What other industry has this structure? We pilots have put us in this predicament. It makes it so ridiculously disadvantageous to make a "lateral move" that there is no competition between employers to attract our professionalism.

Seniority should affect your bid status, vacation, and that's about it. My opinion: Regional pay - First year FO pay rates that equate to a minimum of roughly $45,000/year. Every subsequnt year $65,000. Upgrade to captain and make roughly $80,000 for a year, then $100,000 thereafter. Everyone in each respective seat should be at the same pay rate. You all do the same job. Raises could then be applied "evenly." Management would have a more stable and predictable cost structure regardless of the seniority of the pilot group. Making a lateral move would not be so unattractive.

Will this ever happen? Probably not. Why'd I just waste 10 minutes? Good question.

Please...stay away from our industry until you have done research that goes beyond this forum. You have no clue as to what you're saying. Please do more homework before you step foot into a 121 operation.

Actually, he has a bit of a point. I wouldn't be so harsh so quickly.

Back When I upgraded as a 7 year Capt I made more as a first officer. Making around 60 my first year. So to say captains make a liveable wage is ludicrous. The regional I was at was notorious for being one of the highest paid. I say notorious because management continued asking for pay cuts. A first year first officer should be making 60. You're a skilled worker with years of training and schooling, you should have respect for the job and compensation should be accordingly.

Have a look at this, this guy does a quite excellent job of summing it all up. Good read.

Unions and Airlines

Please read some of his previous post.

Looking at the pay scale of your entry level Part 121 operation, you don't have to worry about me ever getting involved.

You can sleep soundly.