Political, social issue?!? "Propaganda"?

You do realize AOPA is geared toward aircraft owners and pilots (hence the name) and not toward professional aviators, right?

I'm genuinely interested in how you think AOPA and WIA are point people at pursuing 121 aviation as a career goal.

If you had said "Flying Magazine", I'd have bought what you were selling. But AOPA and WIA? I don't get it.

And blaming those entities absolves people of personal responsibility for their lack of due diligence on the industry and career path...

 

So your solution is to just roll over and take it because that's the way it is.

The seniority system didn't create the regional jets, it created the regional airlines. The majors used to fly regional jets. DC-9-10, BAC-111 and Fokker 100 aircraft were no larger than today's "regional jets."

Embraer has dropped the word "regional" from it's product line now know simply as E-Jets which can be configured up to 130 seats. In fact the E-195 was designed to replace the MD-80. What's the difference between an E-190 a CRJ-1000, a Boeing 717, or an Airbus A318? Plenty of differences but not in the experience necessary to operate them or the number of passengers they carry. In fact the E-Jets are more comfortable for passengers with much wider seats in coach. What if Mesa started flying Airbus or Boeing? Scope clauses are only allowing so called "regional jets" to get bigger and bigger (remember when they were all 19 to 30 seat turboprops?) but the pay is getting less and less adjusted for inflation. I made more in my first year at a regional twenty years ago flying a 19 seater then jet first officers do today.

Again...a stick your head in the sand attitude. Although I agree that pilots should vote with their feet but they don't. Go to China and get paid a quarter million a year for your skill at flying a "regional" jet. Business aviation is a great alternative for an individual but the industry can't absorb enough pilots for it to matter to the industry as a whole.

Exactly....you have just illustrated what I've been saying...that the system is set up to work against piloting as a profession.

I am the OP and I am absolutely familiar with it. I've been working in almost every aspect of this business for thirty years including 91 and 135. I've caved in to pressure and done things I shouldn't have. I've also stood in the office and said no to the man's face...I've walked, I've managed, and I've learned how to be a professional and not roll over. I've seen pilots pay the ultimate price. There are other opportunities out there and we need to get over this sense of entitlement of hiding behind a seniority list. It is there because we let it be there.

If you're too afraid to stand up to an employer who asks you to do something you know is wrong...I don't care what profession you are in...you're not a professional.

 

Seniority systems are not the problem with pilot pay, its lack of resolve and successful anti union laws/court rulings and, sad to say, lack of (collective) community within our own ranks.
Want to see what a non seniority system looks like? Already been alluded to in a earlier post; go read the Corporate forum, read the posts pertaining to pay vs seat and equipment, than compare it to airline pay. Oh yea, also ask about time off. You'll hear some good stories about great pay and time off, but you'll hear a lot more of the opposite.
ALPA, unions, and seniority lists may have their faults. Regional pilots are under paid, but I think your looking in the wrong place to paint the unions that represent these pilots as to why the reason things aren't better.
Airline management's ability to whipsaw different airline/pilot groups, flying the same equipment on the same routes but under different (competing) contracts is the real problem. The Comair strike educated the industry about not letting any one contractor have too much power . The industry learned and now every legacy airline has multiples of feeders, all biding against each other and all (at the labor level) powerless to force change with a strike.

Thats not the fault of the seniority system nor the lack of interest in unionized pilots for better terms, its just the way it is.

 

A non seniority based "corporate ladder" system? My friend, you are describing a free market economy which our great nation was built on....

I hope it doesn't ever happen...a nationwide system of entitlements and rewards for mediocrity?

You are confusing unions with seniority systems...they are not one in the same and there is no reason you must have a seniority system to have a strong unionized workforce.

I've said all along...vote with your feet but unfortunately that leaves your colleagues behind to deal with the problems...a stick your head in the sand attitude....or "it doesn't hurt me anymore so it's not my problem" attitude.

 

And this is why the current regional pilots are doomed to substandard agreements and a victim mentality. You really blame the mainline pilots for your groups acceptance of substandard contracts? Your group was more than happy to accept the gift of mainline flying from relaxed scope clauses which without the majority of you would not be flying airplanes today. You were more than happy to accept those reduced wages of your own negotiations to get those fast upgrades and to move on to another carrier.

However, regionals hit the saturation point. The growth stopped, age 65 went into effec and the regional workgroup got more senior as there was no movement. All of a sudden you guys start considering the consequences of long term regional employment.

It isn't the mainline pilot groups that have hurt you. It is pure economics of the equipment you fly and the wages you earn. The regional 50 seat airplane is a money loser. That isn't the fault of the mainline pilots.

Why don't you find someone else to blame for all of your woes in life. I have to ask, did you do any research into the pay and benefits of your carrier before you took the job? Was this all a surprise to you after the fact?

What seems to elude most of the regional pilots is that having a job as an RJ pilot doesn't guarantee you a mainline cockpit ans pay rate. With the poor attitudes many display I suspect more than a few of you door very poorly in interviews.

 

No...pay should be based on supply and demand...it's not an entitlement. Seniority system artificially lowers demand by locking pilots into jobs they don't like...except for some. This results in artificially low pay based on the supply of pilots.

Compare it to what airlines? Certainly not more than half the airline pilots employed in this country. Clearly the jobs are good at the high end. Most professional airline pilots will never see those jobs.

This seems to be a common theme...or misconception...that unions and seniority systems are one and the same. I'm not blaming unions, I'm blaming seniority systems.

Yes...the seniority system is what makes this even possible, otherwise it wouldn't work for management. Pilots wouldn't have to strike, they could just walk...it's called a "mass exodus" in non seniority based environments and it happens all the time...the best and brightest talent just leaves and goes to work for the competition who is more than happy to hire them at equal or better pay and position. This seems to be a concept of a free market economy that completely eludes most airline pilots in this country.

This is what everyone who supports the seniority system seems to have said in this thread....that there's nothing you can do about it anyway so just deal with it. Like a worker in a communist society. Stalin and Mao would be proud.

 

Spare me the "rugged-individualism" talking points. How does major airline pay (unionized, seniority-based) compare with corporate pilot pay (non-unionized, non-seniority)? For the most part, the pay and QOL of the former blows the latter out of the water.

A NSL is nothing more than a seniority grab by the have-nots, who either haven't tried hard enough to achieve their goal of landing a job at a decent carrier (how's that for rugged individualism?), or have some skeletons on their closet.

Again, if that's the environment you want, then corporate aviation should be your goal. You would find your efforts much better rewarded by networking your way in that direction, than tilting at windmills. The seniority system has benefited generations of pilots. It's not going to change.

 

Why does a 23 year UAL/DAL 756 CA think he's a better pilot than a 24 year RJ Captain? That's the question no one wants to deal with.

 

Gotta raise a major BS flag on this one. Legacy airline pilots, long, long ago, set up the current system whereas they were unwilling to fly/and or were willing to sell out the bottom end of their scope clauses for a couple shekels back in the 80's. Most regional pilots weren't even born when the graybeards retiring now set in motion what, at the time, was just a couple beat up operators of Navajos and B-99's; not the E - somethings or other now wearing Delta colors.

I'd bet a round of drinks you never spent one day on line at LGA in a hot twin smelling upwind burnt kerosene. Does the flight suit still fit??

 

Nice, it's all our faults we must have multiple failures and no degrees and DUIs, right?

No, Lam, I blame the greedy Boomers like yourself who got in and pulled up the ladder, then hung out the window and taunted us. The regionals have today's problems because you guys sold scope for short term gains whenever it benefited you, then pointed the finger at us for taking all those "low paying jobs". Now your excuse is "50 seat RJs don't make money", which is also conveniently our fault.

Thanks for caving on scope over and over Lam. Thanks for blowing your ESOP money and letting a completely incompetent management team tank your company over and over, with their hire til you furlough mentality. Thanks for coming on here and taunting us for being stuck at the regionals and tell us to get over it. Selfish prick.