Sorry but at $12.00 an hour a McDonalds worker makes more working a 40 hour shift than $23,000.00. I think MCD is too high a bar to set as an example

 

hearing it's a little difficult to pass ck rides for expat gringos at COPA
Seems they want there own in CA positions - actually all positions. Ck airman did not get the memo about the pilot shortage

 

Um, uh, oh ,I ,we, me. Sounds like a newborn starting his first words they utter or that's what he said to the cop during his DUI field test.

 

You realize that the pilot's unions and seniority system are tools used by management to keep labor costs down? Pilots seem to blindly back the union as if it's working for them, not for management.

Without the union or without seniority there would be a free market at play which would require airlines pay pilots market rates in order to attract new pilots and retain their experienced ones.

Doug is just doing his job which is to make as much money as possible any way he can for himself and the shareholders (mostly himself). Our job is to fly airplanes. It seems both sides are good at their jobs but lousy at the other side's job.

If you think the union and seniority system is for the benefit of the pilots (as it was originally intended but is no more), try getting rid of it or refusing to join it and see how far you get.

If you think making 200-250K annually is the holy grail of aviation (very few of us ever reach it), try looking back and seeing how much pilots used to make (adjusted for inflation of course) and you will see not only a drastic reduction in average salaries over time but much lower high end salaries as well.

We've seen again and again that the demand and compensation for pilots has nothing to do with a free market model.

 

I agree. Unfortunately, those "market rates" would be whatever the hungriest qualified pilots were willing to accept.

 

I understand what you're saying however unions are not just for pay, they play other roles too. But yea they are not necessarily a bad thing for management.

The issue is that pilots fold like a cheap suit when threatened with their jobs. That's the number one rule in the pilot busting playbook for management. We all talk the talk but don't usually walk the walk. Very predictable for management. It's hard to leave your job to make a statement. Now that there's a shortage however we are more willing to say no. But it's just a matter of time before they find another sucker.

 

This is true...which is why unions should have stuck to this role...but they didn't

It's easy to leave your job when you can go and work for someone else at comparable or higher pay commensurate with experience. It's impossible when we have a system that forces you to give up your career or start at the bottom when you lose your job...who benefits from that system? ---Management and those naive pilots who think they have a descent job that will never go away.

 

I agree with everything nineGTurn has been saying.

The seniority system is the worst possible thing currently in the airlines. The various airline Unions have grown beyond their original intent and are now part of the problem.

Take away the fear of starting over at first year pay and you have just taken away management's biggest weapon.

 

How would you go about getting rid of the seniority system? I think that would be a hard sell, especially to those who have vested so much time in their individual airlines. Additionally, the entire system revolves around seniority: commuting, upgrade, equipment, bids, and obviously pay. How do you hit the reset on that?

 

Hmm, a rather simple way to make a big dent would be to eliminate the whole "upgrade from FO to CPT", in fact, maybe even transitioning to a bigger (higher paying airframe).

Run it like the rest of the world. If you are hired for x position, you work at x position. If there comes a job opening above your position, you can apply for it, just like everyone else that is qualified. So a captain would have experience and could apply as a captain at any airline, and not lose anywhere near as much. An FO could apply to be a captain, which inevitably will happen with attrition, just like anywhere else, only, he won't be guaranteed the job, again, just like the real world.

You could still have seniority within your "grade" or position, which would determine schedules and other important aspects, but if you separate the jobs and the "owed upgrade", you'd immediately break apart the biggest problem with seniority IMO.

Course the pilot workforce doesn't want to "fix" seniority as a whole bad enough yet.