Tom,
Correct. Unions have many functions, but one of their most important is to provide some sort of baseline of pay/benefits for employment when there are fewer jobs than there are workers.
One of the great eye-openers of deregulation, back when it started, was the shock many airline pilots had when they found out the results of the political views they held being put into practice. It was quickly determined what the free market value for 727 or DC-9 pilots was...about 1/2 what the established airlines were paying. Plus new ideas like pay for your own uniform, your hotel during training, even your own type rating/engineer ticket. Many of these ideas have stuck and are now part of mainstream acceptance.
Much of what the legacy (those that are still in business) pilots have managed to hold onto has come by shifting the cost cuts to other employee groups.
Example: what once was a career job as an agent/ramper etc at any of the numerous smaller "outstations" are now done by contract labor, with the contracts rolled over every 5 years or so....so any agent can start all over again as a new hire.
Without some sort of pushback, either in the form of regulations/laws/unions, the free market left to itself will always lead to mass penury. (in case the reader feels the last sentence is some sort of leftist/socialist idea, it is a paraphrased plagarism from Adam Smith...and if you don't know who Adam Smith was, then I suspect all the above was gibberish anyway)

 

Separate seniority based pay from the seniority system.

Keep seniority in place for things such as bidding, vacation, etc... but remove salaries from that system.

Every other industry on earth is able to offer pay and raises without the need of a seniority system. It's even how airlines in every single other country on earth does it. Why should we be any different?

It's no coincidence that the United States has the highest flight time requirements for pilots but the lowest pay of anywhere on earth. In Europe, Brazil, etc...Mainline airlines hire pilots with 500-1000 total time to fly Boeing and Airbus aircraft. They start out making the equivalent of $5,000/month or more as FOs with half the flight experience we had when first hired by Regionals makeing less than $24,000/year. Even less at most Regionals like Republic, Great Lakes, etc...

Something has to give. There needs to be a change. The root of the problem is the seniority based pay scales and the large Unions who support it.

 

You sure about that? Which ones? Please post specific airline names.

 

I have friends and family who do in fact fly for airlines in different countries. Through them and their network over the years I have seen how airlines operate all over Europe and Brazil.

To name just a few:

TAM, GOL, Lufthansa, TAP, Iberia, Azul, Air Berlin, and KLM.

The only thing worse at many of these airlines is that their minimum number of days off a month is only 8 to 11. But I have been told there are changes in the wind to increase the number of days off.

 

So how do they determine pay? Is it through a yearly raise that everyone gets, or is each pilot's payrate determined individually?

 

As far as I know it's a little of both. Raises are not yearly, but everybody gets raises at the same time. Base salaries always put FOs in the upper middle class strata of salaries so it's never an issue.

I believe promotions to Captain are based on flight hours and evaluated on an individual basis. They do hire street Captains as well.

The best part is if a pilot wants to leave his airline for another he won't necessarily take a pay cut. Experience is rewarded and you would never see a situation like the one at Envoy where Senior Captains making six figures go back to $40,000/year after moving UP to AA.

 

The RLA regulates airline/airline employees. You would not be an employee of any airline. You would be a contractor. Much like ship pilots operate. Check their current salaries and work conditions. But don't think about it too much. It will never happen. And that "check with a lawyer" quote. I looked in a mirror and checked. I agreed with myself.

 

So what's to stop me, if I'm an airline CEO, from telling you to go pound sand and hiring guys who don't want to join your "corporation?" I could offer them a bonus over what you are asking for in rates as long as they leave you, and then later take concessions. What leverage do you have to stop me?

So you're a lawyer by trade. Cool story. You specialize in labor law? And what are your qualifications in understanding how line pilots think?

 

Contracts. I am the guy that companies hire to screw guys like you in words you think you understand, but don't. Yes I am certainly a bastard. And I am nicely retired. I was a pilot back before I went to law school. The 1970's were just as bad or worse than today's conditions. After seven years I made the smart move and left. My three close friends continued and all retired (with less money and more divorces than me). As far as "how line pilots think", too many don't. That is why there is such a mess in the business today. You go to work, you go home. No unity as a group. Like I said this will never happen so don't think, just go to work and pay my Social Security.

 

You seem to be the one with a comprehension issue. My question is very simple, yet all you persist in is trolling. However, I seriously doubt some retired lawyer, who gotta be pushing 65 or so, is gonna be wasting his time on a forum with regional pilots 40 years junior. I do think you would be a great candidate for TOTD though. Congrats on that.