Mistakes Happen!
01-21-2007, 11:46 PM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: CL605 PIC
Posts: 187
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
You don't really sound like you agree wholeheartedly. You sound like you completely disagree actually. Taking off on runway 26 instead of 22 is not GROSSLY negligent. It was a bad mistake, but I'm not sure that it finds it's way into the grossly negligent category. If they had skipped checklists, shown up drunk, and then taken off on 26, then I'll buy into the grossly negligent, but not yet. Also they mentioned the runway lights being off at around 100 kts, roughly seconds prior to their V1/VR call. That's not a whole lot of time to recognize the mistake and call the abort. 99.9999% of the time that capt doesn't turn onto the wrong runway, and 99.9999% of the times he does, the F/O would've noticed and corrected him. But it didn't add up that day, hopefully it helps re-focus those of still flying today, but I refuse to vilify and declare negligence on a crew (a relatively experienced crew at that) for one, albeit costly, mistake.
You're incorrect about the crew noticing that the runway lights were off at about 100 knots. If that were the case then I'd find the whole situation even more alarming than it actually was because I'm sure you'd agree that the appropriate time for noticing an absense of runway lights would be when you were lining up with the runway. In actual fact the comment about lighting being absent was made about 4 and a half seconds after the thrust was set, and nearly 8 seconds before the captain made the "100 knots" callout.
Doing rough calculations, the lighting comment would probably have been made when the airplane was doing 25-30 knots give or take a few knots. This would have constituted a low speed abort, no harm done, not difficult to do. In fact, after they realized the error, it was a full 15 seconds before reaching the decision speed of V1.
I don't wish to disrespect the deceased, I'm just saying that the blame for the incident should rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the 2 people responsible for the safety of the flight.
Secondly, I agreed whole-heartedly with the statement made by ExDeltaPilot in that mistakes can be made by anyone, and I backed this up later in my post. I did not agree with everything he said. I think people should be accountable.
01-22-2007, 04:12 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: Jet Pilot
Posts: 797
Originally Posted by ExDeltaPilot
Gee Lab Rat - I'm glad you're perfect. Most of us have been lucky enough that our mistakes haven't cost anybody their life personally or the lives of those they worked. I guarantee none of the people in my flying career that died because they made a mistake did it on purpose and that's one of the things we all have to live with. I'm sure the crew of the Comair flight didn't step into the airplane saying we're going to see if we can take off on the wrong runway that's too short so we can kill ourselves and everyone on the plane.
NOW, if they had been doing something stupid (like all the drunk driving deaths that occur on our highways) where someone has a choice and knows they shouldn't be driving - that's different.
Climb off your cloud, take off your halo and join the rest of the imperfect human race.
NOW, if they had been doing something stupid (like all the drunk driving deaths that occur on our highways) where someone has a choice and knows they shouldn't be driving - that's different.
Climb off your cloud, take off your halo and join the rest of the imperfect human race.
Gee Lab Rat - I'm glad you're perfect.
I'll explain my point clearly for you since you have obviously missed it. A lot of people seem to think that this was just a simple mistake. Well, it was a mistake and it was one that could have happened to any of us. The context of my post is not to Monday-morning quarterback the actions of the crew. My point is to show that some here need to have a little sympathy for the victims' families.
I think it is very unprofessional to admonish those who are filing lawsuits and to just chock it up to "mistakes happen". I highly doubt anyone would be filing lawsuits if luggage were missing. Unfortunatley that isn't the case. Now whether you, I or anyone else feels that these lawsuits are the right or wrong thing to do is irrelevant. The families have been through an experience that most, if not all of us cannot even begin to imagine, and I think they have the right to do whatever they feel they need to do.
Climb off your cloud, take off your halo and join the rest of the imperfect human race.
01-22-2007, 07:33 AM
#13
Gets EVERY weekend off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: SIC
Posts: 1,367
well, as well know mistakes do happen, and none of us are exempt from that. This mistake was catastrophic in nature, unfortunately, who is responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft? That's a hat we all put on when we decided to join these ranks.
Should the families sue people? That's a debate for politicians, and i don't feel like getting into that. It would have only taken a second to change the outcome of this event, but that didn't happen.
Another note, if there were lighting problems all over the field (which if memory serves correct there were) then not having runway lights on probably wouldn't have been any "big deal" atleast not one worthy of an abort. Also think of how long it would have taken for the pilots to realize that this wasn't the runway, it isn't a "no lights, wrong runway" situation, it'd be a "no lights...hmmmm...wonder why the lights aren't on (V1-VR)" situation.
Best of luck all, fly safe.
Should the families sue people? That's a debate for politicians, and i don't feel like getting into that. It would have only taken a second to change the outcome of this event, but that didn't happen.
Another note, if there were lighting problems all over the field (which if memory serves correct there were) then not having runway lights on probably wouldn't have been any "big deal" atleast not one worthy of an abort. Also think of how long it would have taken for the pilots to realize that this wasn't the runway, it isn't a "no lights, wrong runway" situation, it'd be a "no lights...hmmmm...wonder why the lights aren't on (V1-VR)" situation.
Best of luck all, fly safe.
01-22-2007, 07:44 AM
#14
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
The older you get the more you realize how lucky you've been your whole life. I look back and wonder how I made it this far. If you have never made a big mistake that could have been bigger but for some reason was minor, you will. "Experience" is just a way of saying "learning." And, we all know we learn from our mistakes.
01-22-2007, 08:03 AM
#15
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by Lab Rat
The night before the crash, a young couple was married. They were killed the next day when the plane crashed after the crew took off from the wrong runway. Would anyone here care to tell the families of that young, deceased couple that "mistakes happen"??
Originally Posted by reelbigchair
I would tell them that in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't think twice. I would tell them that it was a tragic tragic mistake that cost the capt his life, and will cause the F/O the kind of trauma the rest of his life that I can't even imagine. It also has caused heartbreak to hundreds perhaps thousands of relatives of everyone on that plane that day. But yes, I would have no problem explaining to them that mistakes do happen.
01-22-2007, 08:09 AM
#16
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
However, there are mistakes and there are HOWLING BLOODY ******UPS!
Whatever anyone wants to say about mistakes happen and the like, that's true but you need to do simple things right like CHECKING YOUR DG/COMPASS BEFORE YOU ROLL. They knew that the runway wasn't lit. They said so themselves. There's no doubt that at 0600 the main runway would have been lit.
My beef isn't with people saying the crew *******ed up. My beef is people suing everyone from the FO (who has already paid dearly) to Comair (who wasn't responsible). First off, the people who took off from the wrong runway are the capt., who is dead, and the FO, who is *******ed up for life. With the greedy lawyers and opportunistic families, if I was involved (capt. or FO), I would rather be dead.
01-22-2007, 08:13 AM
#17
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by Lab Rat
I think it is very unprofessional to admonish those who are filing lawsuits and to just chock it up to "mistakes happen". The families have been through an experience that most, if not all of us cannot even begin to imagine, and I think they have the right to do whatever they feel they need to do.
I feel sorry for any family that didn't run to a lawyer. If you did, you are taking a tragic opportunity to enrich yourself which, frankly, makes me sick to my stomach.
Yes, they have a right to do whatever they feel they need to do. Just like a loser crack ho has a right to get pregnant and have us taxpayers foot the bill. These people have a right, but it's not right.
01-22-2007, 08:21 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 408
Originally Posted by aussieflyboy
http://www.kentucky.com/multimedia/k...ase/361245.pdf
You're incorrect about the crew noticing that the runway lights were off at about 100 knots. If that were the case then I'd find the whole situation even more alarming than it actually was because I'm sure you'd agree that the appropriate time for noticing an absense of runway lights would be when you were lining up with the runway. In actual fact the comment about lighting being absent was made about 4 and a half seconds after the thrust was set, and nearly 8 seconds before the captain made the "100 knots" callout.
Doing rough calculations, the lighting comment would probably have been made when the airplane was doing 25-30 knots give or take a few knots. This would have constituted a low speed abort, no harm done, not difficult to do. In fact, after they realized the error, it was a full 15 seconds before reaching the decision speed of V1.
I don't wish to disrespect the deceased, I'm just saying that the blame for the incident should rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the 2 people responsible for the safety of the flight.
Secondly, I agreed whole-heartedly with the statement made by ExDeltaPilot in that mistakes can be made by anyone, and I backed this up later in my post. I did not agree with everything he said. I think people should be accountable.
You're incorrect about the crew noticing that the runway lights were off at about 100 knots. If that were the case then I'd find the whole situation even more alarming than it actually was because I'm sure you'd agree that the appropriate time for noticing an absense of runway lights would be when you were lining up with the runway. In actual fact the comment about lighting being absent was made about 4 and a half seconds after the thrust was set, and nearly 8 seconds before the captain made the "100 knots" callout.
Doing rough calculations, the lighting comment would probably have been made when the airplane was doing 25-30 knots give or take a few knots. This would have constituted a low speed abort, no harm done, not difficult to do. In fact, after they realized the error, it was a full 15 seconds before reaching the decision speed of V1.
I don't wish to disrespect the deceased, I'm just saying that the blame for the incident should rest fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the 2 people responsible for the safety of the flight.
Secondly, I agreed whole-heartedly with the statement made by ExDeltaPilot in that mistakes can be made by anyone, and I backed this up later in my post. I did not agree with everything he said. I think people should be accountable.
01-22-2007, 08:58 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: CL605 PIC
Posts: 187
reelbigchair...
I dont want to split hairs here, nor do I want to spend my whole day arguing over this small point.
But... I really doubt that the lighting comment could have been made at 80 knots. It was said nearly 8 seconds before the captain made the 100 knots callout. You're right I don't fly the CRJ, but it seems to me that 8 seconds before reaching 100 knots the MOST you could be doing is 50.
I also know that when the pilot flying says "Set thrust" they often say it AS they advance the thrust levers, and also the first few seconds are (obviously) the period where the airplane is accelerating the most slowly.
My educated guess would be 30 knots but maybe 40. I'd be surprised if the CRJ could take more than 8 seconds to get from 40 knots to 100 but I don't fly it so I'm not speaking from experience.
I dont want to split hairs here, nor do I want to spend my whole day arguing over this small point.
But... I really doubt that the lighting comment could have been made at 80 knots. It was said nearly 8 seconds before the captain made the 100 knots callout. You're right I don't fly the CRJ, but it seems to me that 8 seconds before reaching 100 knots the MOST you could be doing is 50.
I also know that when the pilot flying says "Set thrust" they often say it AS they advance the thrust levers, and also the first few seconds are (obviously) the period where the airplane is accelerating the most slowly.
My educated guess would be 30 knots but maybe 40. I'd be surprised if the CRJ could take more than 8 seconds to get from 40 knots to 100 but I don't fly it so I'm not speaking from experience.
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