sublime259

All I'm saying is they're hiring like gangbusters right now and that pace likely won't continue. I'm definitely not saying flowing is the only way to a legacy either. It is, however, a nice option to have. Personally, I have no desire to work for a LCC or United, so that cuts down the options for career move to 2. If your goal is to simply get your time and move onto whoever hires you first , be it LCC, foreign, cargo, or legacy then yeah, go wherever.

FirstClass

It's a secret that hasn't been revealed for obvious reasons. Of course anybody can apply.

TheRaven

Not true....my new hire class at AA last year had 3 former Envoy pilots besides the 6 of us that flowed. They hired dozens last year from AE in addition to the nearly 200 that flowed.

742Dash

Lots of answers from people who know all.

The industry is going through dramatic upheaval. Rules that applied 2 years ago do not mean anything right now. And all that we can be sure of is that 2 years in the future won't look anything like anyone on these boards is predicting.

Make your choices, roll the dice.

Best of luck.

TXav8r13

Not true. AA had hired several Eagle guys and gals off the street.

404yxl

It is a big deal. The only other flow similar to Envoy's that affects another pilot group was Compass's flow. Now it is ending and I anticipate it having a huge affect on our hiring ability.

A flow is a contractual thing and I know the Envoy one has been validated in the courts too.

The Eagle pilots sat for a long time because AA didn't hire for a long time. A new hire today will flow much quicker because their flow time has no bearing on how long the Eagle pilot flowing now took. Your flow time is only based on the numbers. As long as nothing drastic changes, AA will have to hire a ton of pilots in the coming years and Envoy pilots must make up a large percent of them. That is why a new hire at Envoy can realistically see a 5-6 year flow, while a PSA new hire is looking at 20 years to get a guaranteed interview.

Same thing at Compass. Delta took 300 pilots out of 450 pilots since March, 2014 through October 2015. That is a huge percent of the pilot group gone in less than 2 years. Our pilots who flowed at the beginning of last year sat for a longer time than those who leave this year.

404yxl

This is incorrect. There are some guaranteed interview programs out there that do prevent hiring from outside the process.

Skyvector

There is a very important reason that happened. 9/11. It produced what is known as the "lost decade" in aviation. Majors stopped hiring, many furloughed, at AA many flowed "backwards" to Eagle which was nice since they still had a job...

But there is one key, fundamental thing to remember about 9/11 and the lost decade: There were NO retirements from any of the major airlines in large numbers. Their pilots were still a decade or more away from age 60...then in 2007 we got age 65 which kicked the can further down the road.

So here we are in 2015, and how are things different? First and foremost: Retirements. Here are the retirement numbers for AA:

2015 - 285
2016 - 341
2017 - 424
2018 - 562
2019 - 692
2020 - 796
2021 - 830
2022 - 870
2023 - 1,003
2024 - 956

Whatever happens, even if there were another 9/11 all those people would still be REQUIRED by law to retire. Each one of those positions will have to be replaced. And those numbers are just the mandatory retirements. They don't take into consideration early retirements or any hiring done for GROWTH...and AA is most certainly growing as is Delta and United.

So look at those numbers again. Now think about this: Envoy gets 50% of each class. That is flow through, no interview, no medical. Your Envoy interview is your AA interview and done. With all those numbers, our current MOST JUNIOR pilot at Envoy is 5 years from flowing. That means that any new hire at Envoy is looking at moving up to AA with no other interview in under 6 years.

Ok, so why not just upgrade, get PIC time and interview? Good question. PIC time is not what it used to be at all. Everybody has PIC time these days.

Let's say you do the quickie upgrade thing at some other Regional and hit the "magic" 1,000 hours of PIC. Great...now what? Apply to all the majors? Guess what: Every single other Regional Captain also has PIC...so does EVERY SINGLE pilot flying for the LCCs like Spirit, JetBlue, etc....

So that is tens of thousands of pilots, all with PIC (more than you) all competing for the same position. What will make the majors hire you specifically? Your good looks? The answer is that you will most likely spend years waiting in line. In the mean time you will end up at an LCC...which is fine. It's a step up from the Regionals but it's not one of the big 3, is it? Lets be honest. Then after another 5 years or more at the LCC level you MIGHT have another chance at United or Delta.

This is why people these days are realizing that FLOW as it stands today is more valuable than PIC time. Much more. Take what is currently happening at American Airlines.

As I mentioned, Envoy gets 50% of each class. That is a whopping number. Piedmont gets I believe 4 spots. What that means, in practice, is that off the street hires at AA are almost 100% military and/or family. If you are a civilian trained Regional pilot with little to no contacts you don't stand a chance at off the street hire with AA. Flow is your only ticket.

So that leaves you only two options: Delta or United. And the same goes for every other pilot out there. So again, here you are competing for that one position with tens of thousands of other pilots. Including military pilots who will always have priority when it comes to hiring. Sorry, but it's just the way it is. Will you eventually make it? Possibly...maybe, maybe not. But at what expense? How many years or decades worth of seniority will you lose?

On the other hand, you could be at a major (AA) in 5 years by coming to Envoy or Piedmont and not even have to interview again. One interview: the one you do for Envoy. And that is it. When your number comes up for AA you just click YES or NO online and transfer over. That is why flow today is better.

tinman1

What about guys getting hired at ENY without college degrees? I know more than one hired within the last year who did the fast track flight school route as opposed to going to college and are getting hired on in their early 20s. Will those guys flow without a degree?

Also I know another guy there hired recently with a pretty serious misdemeanor on his record. I have a hard time believing that some of these guys will be at mainline ahead of everyone else.

Skyvector

If they are at Envoy, they will flow. Since we are interviewing for AA we have to be rather picky...but whomever we hire on at Envoy is hired on at AA as well.

So yes, all those people you mentioned will be at AA pretty soon.

Big disclaimer: We do our best to weed out the kind of pilots AA doesn't want...that includes people with any kind of criminal record. But some do get through...and usually it's something dumb that can be explained. I know one guy who had a misdemeanor on his record because he bought beer for a bunch of 19 year olds when he was in his early 20s. It came up, he explained it, and today he is flying the line here at Envoy. I have also seen people with other things on their record get shown the door rather quickly...so we are picky, but also look at people on a person by person basis.