Airline Training Wash out rates
07-30-2015 | 08:11 PM
#33
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Okay, I'm going to let everyone here in on a secret as to who has the biggest washout problem at the average regional:
- The guy who parties his way through training.
- The guy who thinks they will be have their hand held through training. Your job when you show up is to be ready to learn and focus on that task. You'll be presented the information, it's up to you to assimilate it.
- The guy who doesn't bother to study and memorize the callouts, flows, and profiles from day one because they don't make sense. They don't have to, memorize them by rote! Understanding will come in fixed base sim; but you have to KNOW those cold before you start that or you are already behind.
- The guy who doesn't study and prepare for the sim because he's too busy studying for the oral. Yes, you have to pass the oral. You also have to be ready for sim.
- The guy who doesn't actively participate in group study sessions.
- The guy who isn't actively participating and thinking about what's going on when he isn't PF! You have to be learning while you're PM as well (both PM tasks AND absorbing more about what's going on as PF).
- The guy who's fiddling with his phone during the briefing, or even something other than the topic at hand on the iPad or in a manual (if your company still uses paper) not really paying attention. FOCUS on what is being taught at the time, there isn't going to be time to go back over it later. The same applies in the classroom.
- The guy who isn't 200% determined to get through the program no matter what.
- The guy who thinks his previous experience as a ________ means this will be easy.
- The guy who is busy trying to impress the instructor with how much he already knows (this one is usually a younger guy, BTW)
- The guy who won't let go of "this is how we did it at ____________."
- The guy with a poor instrument scan coming in the door.
Don't be that guy.
Tennisguru put it rather well:
All that said, there are some people who have a bit of a tougher row to hoe:
- The guy who needs the sim time to get to ATP mins.
- The 43 year old career changer who has to adapt to a whole new job culture.
- Pilots with who aren't good with rudder control (often, but not always low multi-engine time).
- Those without a decent basic understanding of aerodynamics.
- Pilots with minimal or no time in advanced technology aircraft (G-1000 helps, but is VERY different from an FMS based system - don't count on it to make everything easy for you.
None of this list is insurmountable _IF_ you have a good attitude, and are willing and determined to learn. Combine the items on the first list with the second, and you have a recipe for problems.
I won't be quite as optimistic as to Tennisguru to say you'll have NO problems passing the training program if you follow his advice (emphasis mine). I will say you have VERY good odds of completing the program successfully if you do follow his advice - a subtle difference in approach there.
Attitude and effort go a long, long way. Even if you hit a bump in the road, a good attitude and real effort (it will be noticed - but it has to be there from day one, not kicking in when things go wrong) contribute tremendously to success.
- The guy who parties his way through training.
- The guy who thinks they will be have their hand held through training. Your job when you show up is to be ready to learn and focus on that task. You'll be presented the information, it's up to you to assimilate it.
- The guy who doesn't bother to study and memorize the callouts, flows, and profiles from day one because they don't make sense. They don't have to, memorize them by rote! Understanding will come in fixed base sim; but you have to KNOW those cold before you start that or you are already behind.
- The guy who doesn't study and prepare for the sim because he's too busy studying for the oral. Yes, you have to pass the oral. You also have to be ready for sim.
- The guy who doesn't actively participate in group study sessions.
- The guy who isn't actively participating and thinking about what's going on when he isn't PF! You have to be learning while you're PM as well (both PM tasks AND absorbing more about what's going on as PF).
- The guy who's fiddling with his phone during the briefing, or even something other than the topic at hand on the iPad or in a manual (if your company still uses paper) not really paying attention. FOCUS on what is being taught at the time, there isn't going to be time to go back over it later. The same applies in the classroom.
- The guy who isn't 200% determined to get through the program no matter what.
- The guy who thinks his previous experience as a ________ means this will be easy.
- The guy who is busy trying to impress the instructor with how much he already knows (this one is usually a younger guy, BTW)
- The guy who won't let go of "this is how we did it at ____________."
- The guy with a poor instrument scan coming in the door.
Don't be that guy.
Tennisguru put it rather well:
No regional today intentionally forces a high washout rate among their new hires. Every now and then a class will randomly be made up of a group of losers, but that's a statistical anomaly. The problem is that one class's washout rate magically becomes the washout rate for the whole airline. Today it's a buyers market, so the mere fact that you chose to go to XYZ regional means they are going to do everything they can do to keep you. Rather than wash out a high percentage of candidates, I'd say the opposite is more of a concern - pushing people through who might not cut it otherwise.
Basically, to survive airline training, study hard (i.e. don't go out drinking every night), show up with a willingness to learn, and have a good attitude. They're going to spoon-feed you basically everything you'll need to know. As long as you are showing progress and have a good attitude they'll give you some extra training if you need it.
If you do wash out, it's mainly for two reasons. One is attitude. Even if you might make it through with some extra training, they'll be much less likely to give it to you if you've been a douche the whole time. The second is simply poor flying/multitasking/decision making skills, and that reflects on a lack of experience.
If you're head is screwed on straight, you're a nice guy/gal, and you're a halfway decent stick, you'll have no problems passing any airline's training program.
Basically, to survive airline training, study hard (i.e. don't go out drinking every night), show up with a willingness to learn, and have a good attitude. They're going to spoon-feed you basically everything you'll need to know. As long as you are showing progress and have a good attitude they'll give you some extra training if you need it.
If you do wash out, it's mainly for two reasons. One is attitude. Even if you might make it through with some extra training, they'll be much less likely to give it to you if you've been a douche the whole time. The second is simply poor flying/multitasking/decision making skills, and that reflects on a lack of experience.
If you're head is screwed on straight, you're a nice guy/gal, and you're a halfway decent stick, you'll have no problems passing any airline's training program.
- The guy who needs the sim time to get to ATP mins.
- The 43 year old career changer who has to adapt to a whole new job culture.
- Pilots with who aren't good with rudder control (often, but not always low multi-engine time).
- Those without a decent basic understanding of aerodynamics.
- Pilots with minimal or no time in advanced technology aircraft (G-1000 helps, but is VERY different from an FMS based system - don't count on it to make everything easy for you.
None of this list is insurmountable _IF_ you have a good attitude, and are willing and determined to learn. Combine the items on the first list with the second, and you have a recipe for problems.
I won't be quite as optimistic as to Tennisguru to say you'll have NO problems passing the training program if you follow his advice (emphasis mine). I will say you have VERY good odds of completing the program successfully if you do follow his advice - a subtle difference in approach there.
Attitude and effort go a long, long way. Even if you hit a bump in the road, a good attitude and real effort (it will be noticed - but it has to be there from day one, not kicking in when things go wrong) contribute tremendously to success.
07-30-2015 | 10:59 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 718
Likes: 0
From: ERJ, CA
I would also like to add the guy who isn't healthy. Be as healthy and super rested as possible before training. On average, I got 6 hrs or less of sleep a night. Ground school was 8-6 or 7 sometimes (including lab work with FMS), group sessions, etc. Then eat at 8pm. Then study and try to get into the cockpit mock up some time that night as well as more group study. You also have to bathe! Then up at 6:30 for breakfast, 7:30 van ride to the training center. There was bad mold at the hotel too and I got sick during training. I had to take 2 weeks off, then come back to midnight sim sessions lasting till dawn which were hell. Go heavy on the vitamins, time for exercise will be at lunch. Weekends, forget going home and just rest instead. I believe any applicant needs complete focus. It is good prep for being a new pilot on reserve, weeks away from home (for commuters) and constantly shifting sleep cycles.
07-31-2015 | 01:59 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
What's the big mistery here? Some of you guys suck, face it! Just because you have the credential doesn't make you 121 material! It just means some 141 flight school pushed you through and you still suck. Go back to playing video games and get a state or federal job because that's prob where you belong!
07-31-2015 | 02:10 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
I would also like to add the guy who isn't healthy. Be as healthy and super rested as possible before training. On average, I got 6 hrs or less of sleep a night. Ground school was 8-6 or 7 sometimes (including lab work with FMS), group sessions, etc. Then eat at 8pm. Then study and try to get into the cockpit mock up some time that night as well as more group study. You also have to bathe! Then up at 6:30 for breakfast, 7:30 van ride to the training center. There was bad mold at the hotel too and I got sick during training. I had to take 2 weeks off, then come back to midnight sim sessions lasting till dawn which were hell. Go heavy on the vitamins, time for exercise will be at lunch. Weekends, forget going home and just rest instead. I believe any applicant needs complete focus. It is good prep for being a new pilot on reserve, weeks away from home (for commuters) and constantly shifting sleep cycles.
I went through B737-500 training in 1996 with a total of 500 hours as a Continental intern and aced the course. I was offered a type raiting at the end for $1500 but it had to be completed at the USAirs Sim up in PIT. I declined due to my low time and knowing I had to pay 10g's to COEX to fly the ATR. Did the ATR @ 800 hours through FS and aced that! Like I said some of you guys just suck its not the program because they're a piece of cake compared to 17 years ago when you were expected to be as knowledgeable as the engineer that designed the plane. Flying it should be a given! Not to blow my own horn but its a perfect example of someone thats just got it going and then there's you guys.
Mommy's boys learning life isn't fair is what this is all about. Welcome to the real world guys!
07-31-2015 | 05:14 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 471
Likes: 0
Why does everyone preach about how good group sessions are? It could also be a really good way of wasting a couple of hours.
In my experience it was just a way for people to bounce off things they didn't know about the aircraft to begin with. That just didn't make sense to me. I locked myself in my room read my books, not the notes or cheat study guides, my actual manuals. I turned out fine, some guys that were studying with each other for hours had problems.
In my experience it was just a way for people to bounce off things they didn't know about the aircraft to begin with. That just didn't make sense to me. I locked myself in my room read my books, not the notes or cheat study guides, my actual manuals. I turned out fine, some guys that were studying with each other for hours had problems.
07-31-2015 | 05:23 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 13,843
Likes: 1
From: FAA 'Flight Check'
Why does everyone preach about how good group sessions are? It could also be a really good way of wasting a couple of hours.
In my experience it was just a way for people to bounce off things they didn't know about the aircraft to begin with. That just didn't make sense to me. I locked myself in my room read my books, not the notes or cheat study guides, my actual manuals. I turned out fine, some guys that were studying with each other for hours had problems.
In my experience it was just a way for people to bounce off things they didn't know about the aircraft to begin with. That just didn't make sense to me. I locked myself in my room read my books, not the notes or cheat study guides, my actual manuals. I turned out fine, some guys that were studying with each other for hours had problems.
Some might be very useful. You might learn something that you had brushed past when reading the plethroa of information. Another person might have an idea on how to study/remember some piece of information that you might be having trouble understanding.
On the other hand - you might find yourself in a group more concerned with discussing the target rich opportunities at the local watering hole.
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