Originally Posted by Coneydog

If you keep your workers 'well fed' and happy, then discussions like this don't happen. Keep squeezing your workforce while fattening your wallet, then people (workforce) will start to stand up. This is part of American history and free market economy.

Originally Posted by bedrock

1. starting wage is about 23K, there is a 5k bonus and the company will pay for all training to receive the ATP.

2. Gross pay is very dependent on how much one flies. Half the pilots commute, so they usually fly less. For an FO on average, I'd assume 25K the first yr, 30K the second, and 35 the third. Of course, overtime pay can increase this significantly.

Comparing to a national median is kind of pointless, because you've got the unskilled in that group, and millionaires. In my mind, it would be better to compare the wage to someone who operates power-plants, large complicated heavy machinery, and to those who do skilled work requiring extensive training and knowledge.

I never said there was a shortage of airline pilots, what I said was the regionals are screaming shortage. This is because they are finding it impossible to recruit new-hires w/o incentives. Regionals are offering bonuses, flow-throughs, and financial assistance to certain CFI's who agree to a work contract. Why are they doing this, generosity? No, they are testing the waters incrementally in order to see what bait works. There are mid level seniority regional pilots who see improved hiring opportunities at LCC's and the majors and are holding fast in their current jobs, but many are not being replaced as they leave.

The metric I am using is observation. At my own regional airline, the pilots rejected a concessionary package under job loss threat from both mgmt. and the union. Over 90% voted and of them 83% voted NO on concessions. At Republic a similar situation has occurred. So this indicated to me a large section of regional pilots are not going to tolerate more concessions. At Envoy and Endeavor, concessions were imposed but only after offering a flow-through and/or a hiring bonus. So if the regionals were not having a problem finding pilots, why offer all the incentives?

As far as regional profitability goes, is it growing or decreasing? I have not read any financial analyst's report who really understands the system and the dynamics of the regional business. No one has addressed the effects of a seniority system, the RLA, and discharge of debt through mainline bankruptcy--while retaining billions in profits. Have you read about the effects of the age 65 rule or the ATP requirement and lack of bank loans for a job that costs 100K in training for a reward in the 30-40K range if you don't upgrade? (not including the 23K first yr pay, pre-bonus). Have you read that Delta bailed out Pinnacle to create Endeavor and used that to reset it's contracts with all the other regionals--driving their profits down? Labor in the past was the only "flexibility" in the system, and it is becoming markedly less so.

Also, are these "record profits" being reached by playing the stock buyback game, like so many other companies are doing? A very important metric to look at is, what is the free cash flow of these profitable regionals? Is money being shifted around different regionals in a holding company in order to make one appear more profitable than another?

Finally, I have friends throughout this business and ALL the regional people I know are fed up and are not willing to take any more concessions, because we all realize now it's pointless. The savings just go into mgmt. pockets w/o improving anything, then a while later, they are back for more. The regional industry is not full of wide eyed naive newbies anymore, everyone has yrs of experience in this sad drama, and knows the score. That is why I think the regional model as it stands now is not only broken but unsustainable. Could it/ will it morph into something else? YES!

Originally Posted by Caveman

I'm hopeful. The 83% no vote, shows promise.

Let me ask this though...where do you think the resolve for the 83% no vote originated from?

Originally Posted by BeatNavy

It sounds from your last two posts that you believe we don't deserve anything more because we are contracted labor. Just because we are contracted labor doesn't mean we should accept working for less than we are worth as status quo because ALPA and the majors tell us it's a means to an end. For many, it is the end. FYI contracted labor doesn't always mean cheaper waged labor. There are contractors who are paid more than full time employees in some lines of work.

This almost unpaid "internship" doing the exact same thing as the majors (4 legs of 76 passengers in a 5 hour day is 300 pax...so can't say we fly fewer passengers and therefore deserve a much smaller paycheck) isn't always a temporary job. But ALPA/mainline will tell you it is. Your attitude is why we make horrible wages. If enough pilots held the line, we could make some changes. But WE let the whipsaw continue so we can get those new shiny jets. And I don't see that changing unfortunately, even when pilot supply/demand numbers are in our favor. If every single underpaid regional pilot quit (not talking strike, but quitting altogether) until things got better, it would be about less than a day before pay changed.

Originally Posted by Rahlifer

The whole entitlement attitude of my generation is something that just grinds my gears. I don't "deserve" a damn thing.

Originally Posted by snackysmores

You DESERVE to be paid what you're worth.

Originally Posted by A330Pilot

Stockholm Syndrome....combined with a low self esteem equals many of today's regional pilots...How unfortunate..You should all just work for free since your not worth a living wage...

Originally Posted by Fegelein

Regional pilots are obviously satisfied with their current pay as I don't see you guys quitting in protest.