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Old 02-16-2007 | 01:20 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by fosters
Do you have a letter of interpretation that says it DOESN'T count toward 121 maximum hours flown?

That would be the more conservative train of thought. Obviously there is no reg that directly addresses it, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. There isn't a reg that directly says you cannot taxi at 100 knots on a taxiway either.

I see the "CON" side of the argument - especially when they pull the no-medical-required tactic - however in "my" mind I see that as an exemption rather than going to show that working as a CFI isn't a commercial operation.
I got really curious and did some looking.... from the AOPA website:

Q: Can a CFI provide instruction for compensation or hire while serving as pilot in command (PIC) with only a third class medical certificate?
A: Yes, the FAA has determined that the compensation a CFI receives for flight instruction is not compensation for piloting the aircraft but is rather compensation for the instruction. Therefore, flight instruction is not considered a "commercial operation" and a second class medical is not required. Although a second class medical certificate is required to exercise privileges of a commercial pilot certificate (which in turn is required for the CFI certificate), it is not required to exercise the privileges of your CFI certificate.
Now, if the FAA says it's not a "commercial operation" then the question seems to be answered.

Last edited by Baradium; 02-16-2007 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 01:47 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Baradium
Therefore, flight instruction is not considered a "commercial operation" and a second class medical is not required.

Now, if the FAA says it's not a "commercial operation" then the question seems to be answered.
No, the FAA did not say this. Read what is printed carefully. AOPA made the connection. AOPA legal has also told me it was OK if I rented a plane, transported someone's clients around in said airplane, and was reimbursed fully + hourly wage - which is totally false.

I would like to see where the FAA has said "flight instruction is not a commercial operation", not AOPA. **Edit - I would like to see where the FAA has said flight instruction time will not count against 121 rest/hours.**

The reason a second class medical isn't required is because the regs say an instructor can instruct without a medical (or a 3rd class, depending on the situation).

Last edited by fosters; 02-16-2007 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 02:02 PM
  #83  
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From: 737 FO
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Originally Posted by fosters
No, the FAA did not say this. Read what is printed carefully. AOPA made the connection. AOPA legal has also told me it was OK if I rented a plane, transported someone's clients around in said airplane, and was reimbursed fully + hourly wage - which is totally false.

I would like to see where the FAA has said "flight instruction is not a commercial operation", not AOPA. **Edit - I would like to see where the FAA has said flight instruction time will not count against 121 rest/hours.**

The reason a second class medical isn't required is because the regs say an instructor can instruct without a medical (or a 3rd class, depending on the situation).
I'm going to ask you to read carefully as well. The phrase "the FAA has determined" would imply a letter of interpretation.

This calls on YOU to do some research as well. I understand I asked a question, but that doesn't mean that I have to answer myself while you just say "I don't agree." I challenge you to look into it yourself as well. You also haven't presented anything showing that being a CFI is a commercial operation.

There is no reason that 121 has to be specifically adressed, since 121 says "commercial operations" then all that needs to be shown is that flight instruction is not a commercial operation. If flight instruction time were to still count against 121 rest/hours without being a commercial operation then so would any part 91 flying, including personal pleasure flights.


To this point you are treating an opinion as a regulation... you have yet to quote any regulation defining flight instruction as a commercial operation, or even defining a commercial operation that I've seen.

Last edited by Baradium; 02-16-2007 at 02:09 PM.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 02:19 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Baradium
I'm going to ask you to read carefully as well. The phrase "the FAA has determined" would imply a letter of interpretation.
Well AOPA obviously didn't do their research.

October 28, 1991
Mr. David Bodlak
Director of Flight Operations
Elliott Beechcraft of Omaha, Inc.
PO Box 19064
Omaha, NE 68119

Dear Mr. Bodlak:

Thank you for your letter of March 15, 1991, which was referred to this office by the Assistant Chief Counsel for the Central Region. We apologize that the press of other inquiries and regulatory matters have prevented us from answering sooner.

In your letter you ask several questions pertaining to rest periods required under Part 135 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). You specifically ask about the boundaries of responsibility assigned to the certificate holder when operations unrelated to FAR Part 135 are conducted by a corporation holding an FAR Part 135 Operating Certificate.

The hypothetical situation you give is as follows:

ABC Company, Inc. (ABC) holds FAA operating certificates under FAR Parts 135, 141, and 145. ABC is engaged in the following activities:


Aircraft Maintenance (FAR Part 43, 145)
Aircraft Refurbishing
Aircraft Refueling
Aircraft Sales
On-demand Aircraft Charter (FAR Part 135)
Flight Training (FAR Part 141)
Contract Flight Operations (FAR Part 91)

Your first question asks whether a crewmember (we assume you mean a pilot) who is Part 135 qualified may participate in any of the activities listed below during a required rest period and still accept an assignment for ABC's Part 135 flight operations at the end of the rest period. The activities include:

Work for ABC's Certified Repair Station. (Part 145)
Painting an aircraft for ABC.
Fueling an aircraft for ABC.
Making an aircraft sales call for ABC.
Conduct of a training flight for ABC (Part 141)
Acting as a crewmember on a FAR Part 91 contract flight dispatched by ABC.

FAR 135.263(b) is quoted:


No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to
any duty with the certificate holder during any required
rest period.

None of the activities listed above may be performed by the flight crewmember during a rest period because they are all assigned by the certificate holder and thus in violation of FAR 135.263(b). The FAA has consistently interpreted a "rest period" to be a continuous period of time that is free from all restraint. This includes freedom from work, and freedom from responsibility for work should the occasion arise.

"Duty" has been interpreted to mean actual work for an air carrier or present responsibility to work should the occasion arise.

Your second question asks if this same flight crewmember may participate in the activities previously listed during a rest period if the work was done for another company, not ABC, and whether the flight crewmember could then accept an assignment with ABC for flight operations under Part 135, at the end of the rest period.

The answer is a qualified yes. ABC, as the certificate holder, has no way of forcing the flight crewmember to rest during a rest period. The prohibition against "other commercial flying" during a rest period applies to flying assigned by the certificate holder. The other commercial flying done by the flight crewmember does count against the daily 8 hour limitation if it is done before the Part 135 flying, and also counts against the pilot's quarterly and yearly flight time limitations. For example, 2 hours of "free lance" flight instruction by the pilot during his rest period limits him to only 6 hours of Part 135 flying time during that 24 consecutive hour period. Any other commercial flying done after the Part 135 flying does not count against the daily limitation, but still counts against quarterly and yearly totals.


An additional caution is that it is a violation of FAR 91.13 for a certificate holder or a flight crewmember to operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another. Lack of rest of the pilot is certainly a circumstance which could endanger others, and it is not necessary that the situation devolve into actual endangerment for there to be a violation of FAR 91.13. A certificate holder who uses a crewmember with knowledge of his or her lack of rest may be equally culpable along with the flight crewmember.

This interpretation has been prepared by Arthur E. Jacobson, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager, and has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service at FAA Headquarters. We hope it has satisfactorily answered your inquiry.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
Note the references to "commercial flying".

AOPA Legal sucks. They routinely give out bad info.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 02:25 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by you know who
I asked them about my flight instruction (1600 hours in the previous 12 months before being hired) they didn't consider this commercial flying and if they had I would have been timed out for the next couple months right out of groundschool.
Whoops! I'd suggest you delete your original post! I took your name out, no one will know that MESA SUCKS.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 03:09 PM
  #86  
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Ya gotta love the way they totally contradict themselves...

September 18, 1995

E.V. Fretwell
7130 Davis Ford
Manassas, VA 22111

Dear Mr. Fretwell:

Thank you for your letter of March 17, 1995, to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regarding the medical requirements for a certificated flight instructor.

Flight instructor eligibility requirements are in Section 61.183 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FARs) (14 C.F.R. Part 61, Section 183). FAR Section 61.183, however, does not address medical certification requirements. It has been, and continues to be, the interpretation of the FAA to require a third class medical certificate for a certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember while giving flight instruction. A certificated flight instructor who is not acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember while giving flight instruction need not possess a valid medical certificate. (See Attachment, Part 61 Certification Bulletin No. 81-2).

Section 61.19(d)(1) of the FAR (14 C.F.R. Part 61, Section 19(d)(1)) states, in pertinent part, that a flight instructor certificate is effective only while the holder has a current pilot certificate and a medical certificate appropriate to the pilot privileges being exercised. (Emphasis added)

The FAA has determined that the compensation a certificated flight instructor receives for flight instruction is not compensation for piloting the aircraft but is rather compensation for the instruction. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising only the privileges of a private pilot. A certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is not carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire, nor is he or she, for compensation or hire, acting as pilot in command of an aircraft. Therefore, since a certificated flight instructor who is acting as pilot in command or as a required flight crewmember and receiving compensation for his or her flight instruction is exercising the privileges of a private pilot, he or she only needs to hold a third class medical certificate. In this same regard, the FAA has determined that a certificated flight instructor on board an aircraft for the purpose of providing flight instruction, who does not act as pilot in command or function as a required flight crewmember, is not performing or exercising pilot privileges that would require him or her to possess a valid medical certificate under the FARs.
Looks like they're talking out of both sides of their mouth...

However, since the interpretation that fosters threw up there is the more restrictive (i.e. following it will get you in the least amount of trouble), that's the one I'd go with until the FAA publishes something a little more definitive.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 03:29 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by schoolio
Ya gotta love the way they totally contradict themselves...

Looks like they're talking out of both sides of their mouth...
I'm not quite sure they are. I don't think anyone needs a dictionary to define the word "commercial" - any time money changes hands would make something a "commercial" operation.

Your interp essentially says that a Flight Instructor is using his CFI certificate to receive compensation - because a private pilot cannot receive compensation (unless it is the pro rata share, blah blah blah). I'm not arguing that.

My interp states that instruction is deemed a commercial operation.

Here is another one:

October 31, 1990 (#2)
INFORMATION: Interpretation of Rest Periods Required under Part 135

Acting Assistant Chief Counsel,
Regulations and Enforcement Division, AGC-200


Manager, NE-FSDO-03

This is in response to your memorandum of April 24, 1989, requesting an interpretation of Part 135 flight time limits and rest requirements. Your memorandum, which was originally sent to counsel for the New England region, was forwarded to us on May 4, 1989. We apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry, and thank you for your patience.

In your memorandum, you state that there are companies in your region which hold more than one type of Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certificate. For example, the same company may hold an air carrier certificate, operate flight schools under Parts 61 and 141 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR), and operate an executive flight department under Part 91. You also tell us that in many cases, the same pilots are used by the company for all their different flying functions.

Question #1

Your first question concerns paragraph (d) of Section 135.267, which provides as follows:

"Each assignment under paragraph (b) must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment."

You ask whether a pilot for a company holding more than one type of certificate can fly company people under Part 91, flight instruct for the same company under Parts 61 and 141, and then count these types of flying time as rest within the meaning of paragraph (d) of Section 135.267.

Answer

The answer is no. A rest period cannot be infringed upon by the performance of any duty for the certificate holder.

For purposes of the Part 135 rest requirements, time spent engaging in such activities as flying company people under Part 1 and acting as flight instructor under Parts 61 and 141 would be considered "other commercial flying."

"Other commercial flying" means any nonmilitary flying as a required crewmember, other than in air transportation, for which the crewmember is paid for his or her services.
The general rule regarding rest requirements is that if the other commercial flying is assigned by the certificate holder, it may not be conducted during a required rest period.

In the question you have presented to us, the same company or organization which is the Part 135 certificate holder is also assigning the other commercial flying. Although it may be wearing a different hat at the time of the assignment - that is, that of operator under Parts 61, 91, or 141 - it is still the pilot's employer in Part 135 operations.

We cannot accept the argument that the company is not acting as a Part 135 certificate holder when it assigns the pilot the other commercial flying time. To do so would be to permit the rest requirements of the FAR to be subverted. As you know, the rest requirements have an important safety purpose. They are intended to eliminate fatigue, and all the danger fatigue causes, as a factor in air transportation.

Question #2

Your second question, which also involves paragraph (d) of Section 135.267, is whether office functions associated with the Part 61 or Part 141 flight school or the Part 91 executive flight department can be assigned to a pilot by the company holding various certificates during rest periods required by Section 135.267(d).

Answer

The answer, which can be found in Section 135.263(b), is no. Section 135.263(b) contains rules which apply to all certificate holders, and provides as follows:

"No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to ANY duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period." (Emphasis added.)

Section 135.263(b)'s reference to duty is all-inclusive. By the plain terms of the regulation, a rest period cannot be infringed upon by the performance of any duty for the certificate holder, including office duty.

Question #3

Your third and final question concerns paragraph (f) of 135.267. Paragraph (f) provides as follows:

"The certificate holder must provide each flight crewmember at least 13 rest periods of at least 24 consecutive hours each in each calendar quarter."

You ask whether the company which is the certificate holder can assign office duties associated with the flight school or the executive flight department during the required rest periods.

As stated above, Section 135.263(b) provides that:

"No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember to ANY duty with the certificate holder during any required rest period." (Emphasis added.)

Once again, since this provision's reference to duty is all-inclusive, a rest period cannot be infringed upon by the performance of any type of duty for the certificate holder, including office duty.

This interpretation has been coordinated with the Air Transportation Division of the Flight Standards Service at FAA Headquarters. We hope that it has satisfactorily answered your inquiry.


/s/

Donald P. Byrne
Can't get plainer than that.

Last edited by fosters; 02-16-2007 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 06:51 PM
  #88  
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From: Flying a Desk
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For purposes of the Part 135 rest requirements, time spent engaging in such activities as flying company people under Part 1 and acting as flight instructor under Parts 61 and 141 would be considered "other commercial flying."
That's the clearest definition I've seen yet. I also saw an interpretation where the question was asked about 121 flying, and they referred to an interpretation regarding 135 rest rules that basically said what fosters put up, but I really don't feel like digging for it.
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Old 02-16-2007 | 06:59 PM
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Just looked at ALPA's "Guide to Flight Time Limitations and Rest Requirements" booklet. On page 3, the 3rd paragraph starts :
"For example, if a flight crewmember had engaged in commercial flying (e.g., flight instruction, charters, etc.)...
So I would take that as no flight instructing without telling your employer.
As far as the references in the other posts: you guys have the ASA flight library series too, huh?
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Old 02-16-2007 | 08:32 PM
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Wow - this post turned ugly quick. I skipped pages 3-9 due to boredom so I could throw in my 2% of a dollar:

Your company has a policy that says "No Outside Commercial Flying". So you decide to beat the system because you got 300 hours of dual given and you wanna give some yuppie a BFR so you can double your regional paycheck. YOUR intrepretation (which will never be the same as the FAA's - which is never the same in different FSDO's) tells you that you can rock out with your c0ck out. You saddle on up in some aircraft (which flies just like that big shiny EMB/CRJ/SAAB/whatever the hell they let you touch at XXX airlines) and go blasting off into the wild blue yonder with Dr. Chuck Yeager, ESQ in his 1976 Bonanza that's gone through more doctors than a West Avenue call girl. You do your first turn around the patch, bounce it on, and land in a grassy part of the airport usually reserved for maintenance guys who like to smoke a lil' weed on the job. Have fun doing the carpet dance with the Chief Pilot explaining why your license/certificate/errant piece of government paper is "suspended pending review" (for those of you who don't think they go after your commercial AND cfi when you f up...being naive is cute too). I'm sure he'll be thrilled by your expert analysis of the regulations and whatever screen shot you printed off AOPA legal to aide in your defense. He'll be even more excited to learn that he no longer needs to interpret and enforce company policy as you are already doing it for him out in the real world. You're on the fast-track...make sure you ask for a recommendation letter to Delta while your in there. He probably already has one written up for ya! It's my belief that the time as a CFI counts towards your 121 requirement (it definately does for 135 - see NetJets). It's also my belief that the time thing isn't the only reason they want to keep you on the ground.
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