70% of upgrades had a failure.
08-10-2023, 07:54 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2023
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by Excargodog
But the ISSUE was CA upgrades. So I ask again, what is the proposed solution? To never upgrade to CA???
I cannot really say "Yes" or "No". CA's I flew with said "if I can do it, so can you". And at the same time joggling with information and results I've gathered, I can't come up with an official answer. I spent three years at ExpressJet, it was a great company and probably the best training department i've ever had to work with. On my second year I put in for upgrade and got rewarded on my third year as I felt ready crossed with a great training reputation provided by ExpressJet (I lost the upgrade as the company ceased). At Republic.. . . I felt iffy . . . . training and exams were a bit more challenging crossed with the tactics induced by certain LCA (some I believe are completely unnecessary).
So it's really hard to say. Ask questions to CAs, ask other FOs, gather all the information and think of the statistics of passing and being a successful upgrade. It won't be easy for sure!!
08-10-2023, 11:34 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Posts: 297
Originally Posted by Excargodog
But the ISSUE was CA upgrades. So I ask again, what is the proposed solution? To never upgrade to CA???
Recurrent went fine. But the KV question bank is something like 150 questions and keeps getting longer. Plus, they can ask questions that aren’t in the question bank if they want, and as many as they want. So, no standardization. Compare that to Southwest’s recurrent KV- 30 questions total, they can only use the list they are given.
I know the types of pilots that are coming in to the regionals now are lower experienced than in the past. But that means the training needs to change. Standardize the instructors. Investigate guys with hard-ass reputations. Add more sims to the syllabus. Yeah, I know it’s more expensive but compare that to the cost of hiring someone and just sending them home when they fail LOE.
08-10-2023, 11:42 AM
#13
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by FlyinCat
The solution is to re-examine the training syllabus and standardize the check airmen. I don’t think we are much different than other regionals. We have some check airmen that like to induce artificial stress, as stated before. On my initial LOE the check airman read ATC clearances so fast I couldn’t hardly tell what he was saying. He yelled at me. He passed me and then laughed at how scared I was that I failed. I never want to deal with that guy again.
Recurrent went fine. But the KV question bank is something like 150 questions and keeps getting longer. Plus, they can ask questions that aren’t in the question bank if they want, and as many as they want. So, no standardization. Compare that to Southwest’s recurrent KV- 30 questions total, they can only use the list they are given.
I know the types of pilots that are coming in to the regionals now are lower experienced than in the past. But that means the training needs to change. Standardize the instructors. Investigate guys with hard-ass reputations. Add more sims to the syllabus. Yeah, I know it’s more expensive but compare that to the cost of hiring someone and just sending them home when they fail LOE.
Recurrent went fine. But the KV question bank is something like 150 questions and keeps getting longer. Plus, they can ask questions that aren’t in the question bank if they want, and as many as they want. So, no standardization. Compare that to Southwest’s recurrent KV- 30 questions total, they can only use the list they are given.
I know the types of pilots that are coming in to the regionals now are lower experienced than in the past. But that means the training needs to change. Standardize the instructors. Investigate guys with hard-ass reputations. Add more sims to the syllabus. Yeah, I know it’s more expensive but compare that to the cost of hiring someone and just sending them home when they fail LOE.
You were given a clearance that wasn't slow and carefully enunciated? How could a check airman or instructor be so crass, so bold, so outlandishly mean as to give you something you might find every day in the real world? It's as though satan himself slipped into that simulator to ruin your life. The man should have his flesh stripped from his bones with needle nose pliers and fed to ugly sharks. That'll learn 'em.
I'm truly shaken. You were asked a question that you weren't given to memorize before hand. What ever is this world coming to?
Did the instructor not stop the simulator at the half-way point for nap time, and perhaps some fruit juice and graham crackers? Did he fail to hold you hand to and from the simulator? Did he at least say "good job, son," and pat you on the back and give you hope for tomorrow?
Good god.
08-10-2023, 11:50 AM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 627
Originally Posted by FlyJD
Well . . . . in my initial class of 27 FO's, I passed all the exams, but I saw nearly 1/3rd of my class mates failed the LOE, including a current C-17 pilot in the Air Force Reserve. A couple others failed the MV, two failed the MV twice. I almost failed the LOE for a rusty ILS 04 LGA approach. Thankfully I fixed it on the second attempt. It was hard getting yelled at alot with comments from behind in the sims and during flight in IOE. So yeah it was very stressful and I was pretty hesitant to upgrade.
Well it got worse. I came back for recurrency a year later. MV was incomplete as I was rusty on a couple things. Single engine and setting the RNAV with the back up tracks and RNAV for visuals. Did the MV the following day in just 20 mins. The KV, I over estimated myself and thought I was ready for the 1 hr & 30 min long KV. Well I was weak on the hydraulics and some points of the exterior preflight. I forgot what the acronym is for PACKs. I forgot what's in the left fuel tank that's not in the right fuel tank (fuel temperature sensor) I confused the IDG and EDP acronyms and said them at the wrong spots, my mistake. The lines on the main gear between the tires, I took a guess that the blue lines are hydraulic lines but the black lines in the middle. Oops. . . forgot. KV was unsatisfactory. Retook and passed. Then LOE, made mistakes on single engine (yes single is both on MV and LOE). Floated past the touchdown zone as I forgot we're slightly faster, 150kts Vref instead of the usual 130/140 kts. I should've idle the power sooner. And I made a mistake of leaving the airplane uncoordinated in cruise (not during approach), I should've kept my feet hard on the rudder. Another mistake. Second attempt, better landing, but made another mistake. Missed the glideslope. So I used FPA to increase the descent rate to catch the glide slope. Bad mistake, the stabilized approach criteria slipped my mind. That was my fault and it is a critical item for memory items much like the limitations. That was an automatic unsatisfactory. Weeks later I was waiting for notification if i'd receive a little bit of training to fix the gaps and retake the LOE as that was recommended by the LCA and I thought i'd see it as an opportunity to add into my experience column and know with better and more realistic preparations for the rest of my journey. Got a call from the manager of training and a letter signed "a unanimous decision has been made to discontinue training". And I was asked to resign. So that was the end of it. All in all it was a hit or miss situation, but that's me. It was very challenging and very stressful! And I tried.
Well it got worse. I came back for recurrency a year later. MV was incomplete as I was rusty on a couple things. Single engine and setting the RNAV with the back up tracks and RNAV for visuals. Did the MV the following day in just 20 mins. The KV, I over estimated myself and thought I was ready for the 1 hr & 30 min long KV. Well I was weak on the hydraulics and some points of the exterior preflight. I forgot what the acronym is for PACKs. I forgot what's in the left fuel tank that's not in the right fuel tank (fuel temperature sensor) I confused the IDG and EDP acronyms and said them at the wrong spots, my mistake. The lines on the main gear between the tires, I took a guess that the blue lines are hydraulic lines but the black lines in the middle. Oops. . . forgot. KV was unsatisfactory. Retook and passed. Then LOE, made mistakes on single engine (yes single is both on MV and LOE). Floated past the touchdown zone as I forgot we're slightly faster, 150kts Vref instead of the usual 130/140 kts. I should've idle the power sooner. And I made a mistake of leaving the airplane uncoordinated in cruise (not during approach), I should've kept my feet hard on the rudder. Another mistake. Second attempt, better landing, but made another mistake. Missed the glideslope. So I used FPA to increase the descent rate to catch the glide slope. Bad mistake, the stabilized approach criteria slipped my mind. That was my fault and it is a critical item for memory items much like the limitations. That was an automatic unsatisfactory. Weeks later I was waiting for notification if i'd receive a little bit of training to fix the gaps and retake the LOE as that was recommended by the LCA and I thought i'd see it as an opportunity to add into my experience column and know with better and more realistic preparations for the rest of my journey. Got a call from the manager of training and a letter signed "a unanimous decision has been made to discontinue training". And I was asked to resign. So that was the end of it. All in all it was a hit or miss situation, but that's me. It was very challenging and very stressful! And I tried.
Wouldn't that be a situation where the union would fight for you to at least go back to the right seat at the very least?
08-10-2023, 12:49 PM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2023
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by Bahamasflyer
I'm perplexed.....How could they force you to resign so easily when you had already completed probation?
Wouldn't that be a situation where the union would fight for you to at least go back to the right seat at the very least?
Wouldn't that be a situation where the union would fight for you to at least go back to the right seat at the very least?
Eventually I called up the lead stewards from the union, yes I was out of probation. But he said "there's nothing I can do about this, but what I can suggest to you. . . . Start applying to carriers that are willing to take a chance with a guy like you!!". Didn't know what to say right there either. And I feel quite dumb founded. :-(
So in recurrency, according to the AQP training manual, if you fail one exam twice, or. . . two different exams simultaneously. . . you are on special tracking #2 for 26 months and have to do recurrency exams and pass them every six months until that 26 month time frame is over. And during that 26 month frame, you will not be allowed to upgrade. So that too could be a factor in this as they're so over staffed with FO's right now. During my whole year I only managed to log 314 hours versus 700-800 hours a year at ExpressJet FO. Currently as an FO at RPA, you will lose a lot of trips off your schedule over somebody's consolidation. So i'm sure they wouldn't want to keep paying someone spending the next two years to mostly sit at home, even though i've tried to pick up trips.
Do NOT Fail recurrency!!! Do not wind up being turned down like I was!!!!
08-10-2023, 04:09 PM
#17
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2023
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by TransWorld
So what are you doing, now?
08-10-2023, 04:21 PM
#18
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2022
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by Excargodog
But the ISSUE was CA upgrades. So I ask again, what is the proposed solution? To never upgrade to CA???
I’ve seen them push through these weak training captain. Is that translating to weak line pilots? Is training trying to retain pilot by increasing failures? Not sure but I can assure you 70% of the guys I know arnt dirt bag /weak pilots.
08-10-2023, 05:52 PM
#19
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
Originally Posted by Ur momma
Solution? Not sure. I have always intended to upgrade when I have the time and I’ve had 3 captains tell me I’m ready without me asking but ultimately I’m not sure it’s worth it if training isn’t going to adequately prepare me because god knows I would put in every bit of effort that’s left in the tank.
I’ve seen them push through these weak training captain. Is that translating to weak line pilots? Is training trying to retain pilot by increasing failures? Not sure but I can assure you 70% of the guys I know arnt dirt bag /weak pilots.
I’ve seen them push through these weak training captain. Is that translating to weak line pilots? Is training trying to retain pilot by increasing failures? Not sure but I can assure you 70% of the guys I know arnt dirt bag /weak pilots.
What you need to understand is that the first day of your upgrade class was your initial new hire training. A lot of pilots don't grasp that concept.
Originally Posted by FlyJD
So I didn't know what to say. He also said "You did not use rudder on your single engine during LOE!!!!!". So it was a mistake. But I guess a very intolerable mistake to make.
At it's most basic level, your first and most critical responsibility is to fly the airplane, and with an engine out, maintaining directional control is student-pilot 101: top of the hit parade.
You do that with rudder.
Pilot, vs. passenger. Both sit in the seat. One flies the airplane.
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