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Old 11-16-2019, 05:17 PM   #61  
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Default I live in this community & Firefighter

Please....Nothing more here except official postings from NTSB and factual media or government press releases related to this loss.
One day the boys will be going on the internet to find out what happened to David.

www.kucb.org/post/memoriam-david-oltman#stream/0
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Old 12-08-2019, 08:07 AM   #62  
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I flew on a penair plane once!
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Old 12-08-2019, 12:57 PM   #63  
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I flew on a penair plane once!

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Old 09-15-2020, 09:21 AM   #64  
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So, Mr. Aviation Expert. Would you take off with your wings in this condition?

Not only would I, but I have. That looks like hoarfrost which is water vapor that immediately condenses to solids, skipping the liquid phase. Strictly speaking, hoarfrost is deposited on the surface of the wing but is not adhering to it unlike rime ice. Also, hoarfrost roughness is very slight - much less rough that the peeling paint often found on plane's wings. I'll also argue that the location of the hoarfrost in these pics is where ice has little to no impact on wing lift - on the aileron and trailing portion of the wing. In fact, looking at the photo it is obvious the airflow is disrupted by the sudden 90deg blunt wing trailing edge just before the aileron leading edge. The hoarfrost would have disappeared instantly as soon as the airspeed started to increase. The slight roughness of the frost in your pics actually could be beneficial as it creates turbulent flow and keeps the air attached to the aileron surface such as turbulators and VG's do.


Your actions were completely unfounded. The plane was likely safe and arguably legal as hoarfrost does not adhere to a surface hence no "frozen contaminant adhering to a critical surface". You reacted with no knowledge of aerodynamics and no experience with flying with ice. Your actions were based on ignorant, emotional reasons. I hope that someone like you is watching you at all times with the "FSDO number on speed dial". I see that you are ATC. I can't count all the times ATC has given me unsafe instructions but I'm not on the phone rat'ing them out.


Please leave the industry. It is illogical, non-critical thinking idiots like you who are ruining aviation.
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Old 09-15-2020, 12:09 PM   #65  
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Not only would I, but I have. That looks like hoarfrost which is water vapor that immediately condenses to solids, skipping the liquid phase. Strictly speaking, hoarfrost is deposited on the surface of the wing but is not adhering to it unlike rime ice. Also, hoarfrost roughness is very slight - much less rough that the peeling paint often found on plane's wings. I'll also argue that the location of the hoarfrost in these pics is where ice has little to no impact on wing lift - on the aileron and trailing portion of the wing. In fact, looking at the photo it is obvious the airflow is disrupted by the sudden 90deg blunt wing trailing edge just before the aileron leading edge. The hoarfrost would have disappeared instantly as soon as the airspeed started to increase. The slight roughness of the frost in your pics actually could be beneficial as it creates turbulent flow and keeps the air attached to the aileron surface such as turbulators and VG's do.


Your actions were completely unfounded. The plane was likely safe and arguably legal as hoarfrost does not adhere to a surface hence no "frozen contaminant adhering to a critical surface". You reacted with no knowledge of aerodynamics and no experience with flying with ice. Your actions were based on ignorant, emotional reasons. I hope that someone like you is watching you at all times with the "FSDO number on speed dial". I see that you are ATC. I can't count all the times ATC has given me unsafe instructions but I'm not on the phone rat'ing them out.


Please leave the industry. It is illogical, non-critical thinking idiots like you who are ruining aviation.
References? Where are you finding this definition of frost and that it doesn't adhere?
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Old 09-15-2020, 07:34 PM   #66  
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References? Where are you finding this definition of frost and that it doesn't adhere?
Former bush pilot here.
There will be no reference for that sort of "tribal knowledge". It's sorta sounds like an urban myth, but it came out of the bush.

Logically, frost collects (and adheres) on cold surfaces. If it's NOT adhering then it's called FOG.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:44 PM   #67  
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Former bush pilot here.
There will be no reference for that sort of "tribal knowledge". It's sorta sounds like an urban myth, but it came out of the bush.

Logically, frost collects (and adheres) on cold surfaces. If it's NOT adhering then it's called FOG.
Yes.

All I can find says hoarfrost forms exactly the same as frost, except higher humidity leads to bigger crystals extending further off of the surfaces.

Freezing fog is the same as freezing rain, it's just fog that freezes instantly when it touches a surface.

Ice fog is ice crystals suspended, these may "fall" to the ground and not adhere. Ice fog IS a common occurrence in the North latitudes, but pretty obvious and blows off rather quick.
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:10 AM   #68  
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Yes.

All I can find says hoarfrost forms exactly the same as frost, except higher humidity leads to bigger crystals extending further off of the surfaces.

Freezing fog is the same as freezing rain, it's just fog that freezes instantly when it touches a surface.

Ice fog is ice crystals suspended, these may "fall" to the ground and not adhere. Ice fog IS a common occurrence in the North latitudes, but pretty obvious and blows off rather quick.
I concur with all of that.
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Old 09-16-2020, 07:32 PM   #69  
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Former bush pilot here.

There will be no reference for that sort of "tribal knowledge". It's sorta sounds like an urban myth, but it came out of the bush.


Logically, frost collects (and adheres) on cold surfaces. If it's NOT adhering then it's called FOG.

No sir, not a myth - an actual meteorological term. And you are wrong, fog is water vapor that is condensing because the air is oversaturated. I've never seen fog on a surface. Did you perhaps mean to say....dew?


There's frost and then there's hoarfrost. By definition hoarfrost goes from the vapor state to the solid state. It can be brushed off the surface. Think about two pieces of lead at room temperature. Put them together - no adhesion. Heat one to the melting point and then touch the solid piece and then cool to room temp - it adheres. Think of dry snow falling on a wing cold soaked at -20degC. Are you telling me that snow will adhere?


"While hoarfrost forms directly on objects as ice crystals, rime forms when tiny, near-freezing water droplets, usually from thick fog and other clouds, attach to the surface of a below-freezing object and turn into ice immediately on contact."

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weath...hoarfrost/7092


Hoarfrost is described in many meteorological texts. Frost - AMS Glossary for an easy one.


Regardless, even if that frost did adhere to the wing like window frost, it would not affect the airflow. It's thin enough to see through it, it's on the aft portion of the wing, and it's far smoother than the screw heads, access panels, and other structure on the wing. But we continue to waste money and the environment on spraying clean wings because every uneducated idiot like this guy has a phone camera and the FSDO on speed dial.

Not sure why the "former bush pilot" comment was made. Dogma? Ok let's go - four years conducting aviation weather research including aircraft icing for a government lab funded by the FAA and years designing jets for Boeing as an aerospace engineer. Oh yea and I flew a 1941 warbird with a 65hp engine, no GPS, no electrical above the arctic circle - in the bush. Oh and I've flown a CRJ200 (supercritical wing) with the typical outer 4 wing panels having hoarfrost on them. If you want to pull out resumes and compare who's bigger, I'm game. But I'd rather argue physics. Crack a book sometime.

Last edited by Ace66; 09-16-2020 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 09-16-2020, 09:10 PM   #70  
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No sir, not a myth - an actual meteorological term. And you are wrong, fog is water vapor that is condensing because the air is oversaturated. I've never seen fog on a surface. Did you perhaps mean to say....dew?


There's frost and then there's hoarfrost. By definition hoarfrost goes from the vapor state to the solid state. It can be brushed off the surface. Think about two pieces of lead at room temperature. Put them together - no adhesion. Heat one to the melting point and then touch the solid piece and then cool to room temp - it adheres. Think of dry snow falling on a wing cold soaked at -20degC. Are you telling me that snow will adhere?


"While hoarfrost forms directly on objects as ice crystals, rime forms when tiny, near-freezing water droplets, usually from thick fog and other clouds, attach to the surface of a below-freezing object and turn into ice immediately on contact."

https://www.accuweather.com/en/weath...hoarfrost/7092


Hoarfrost is described in many meteorological texts. Frost - AMS Glossary for an easy one.


Regardless, even if that frost did adhere to the wing like window frost, it would not affect the airflow. It's thin enough to see through it, it's on the aft portion of the wing, and it's far smoother than the screw heads, access panels, and other structure on the wing. But we continue to waste money and the environment on spraying clean wings because every uneducated idiot like this guy has a phone camera and the FSDO on speed dial.

Not sure why the "former bush pilot" comment was made. Dogma? Ok let's go - four years conducting aviation weather research including aircraft icing for a government lab funded by the FAA and years designing jets for Boeing as an aerospace engineer. Oh yea and I flew a 1941 warbird with a 65hp engine, no GPS, no electrical above the arctic circle - in the bush. Oh and I've flown a CRJ200 (supercritical wing) with the typical outer 4 wing panels having hoarfrost on them. If you want to pull out resumes and compare who's bigger, I'm game. But I'd rather argue physics. Crack a book sometime.
All big boy airlines use the clean wing concept these days, if it’s not clean it gets cleaned, pretty simple and makes for an easy descion to de ice or not. Hoar-Frost or 1/4” of dry fluffy snow laying on the wing (not adhering) it’s not clean, it gets de-iced.
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