PSA Crash with Helicopter at DCA…

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04-29-2025 | 05:34 AM

#281

60av8tor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Beech Dude

Rank isn't in the airplane. The A-code is the A-code (PIC). I'm an Air Force puke so not sure how the Army's mentality is with it, but it honestly isn't a major factor. Plenty of sorties, training and combat, where the PIC or Flt Lead is a lower rank than their co-pilot or others in the formation.

Final NTSB will be read by many and hopefully some good good comes out of it for us all to learn right? RIP to those lost so that we can operate better.

Well yeah, that’s what I was saying - I don’t think rank had anything to do with the instructions not being given directly enough or not being followed. As far as the WO commissioned dynamic, I saw a few examples where the new LT was too deferential to the senior WO. Very few and far between, but you could have a WO who just has a bone with any O grade and that new LT is deathly afraid of getting on the wrong side. They don’t (didn’t) call it the wolf pack for nothing. This was very rare as 99% self-regulated and were ultimate professionals, but like everything, there’s a 1%.

At the end of the day, the three individuals in that ac all suffer the same fate. If any one of them (crew chief to a lesser extent, obviously) knew exactly what was imminent, corrections would have been made.

04-29-2025 | 05:38 AM

#282

Sliceback

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Joined: Dec 2007

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From: Window seat

Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeKantEven

Oh, comon! Yes, everyone knows about this crash, but who can immediately make the connection from the Captain's name alone?

Kids these days be like "Yeah -- in the 1970's two 747's crashed somewhere and killed a lot of people". The last pilot I asked if he heard of "Jacob van Zanten" said "Oh, that clothing designer?"

I appreciate the smackdown, because my comment unintentionally conveyed a bit of cockiness. But I'm a bit sensitive -- now I'm gonna take it out on my FO for the rest of the month.

...like we really need YOUR sarcasm!

Now 'scuse me whilst I don my double-breasted Van Zanten jacket and duty-in for my 4-day...

No clue what the Captain's name was. But my dad flew with the Pan Am FO afterwards and got to hear the story first hand. He, or the FE, realized the KLM flight was on the runway coming towards them. PAA Captain pushed the throttles up to try and turn off the runway. Collision. FO reached up to pull the fire handles and they were gone....the roof was missing. My recollection of the story is that's when the FO realized what had happened. He turned around and could see all the way back to the tail. That had to be a weird moment.

04-29-2025 | 06:48 AM

#283

2StgTurbine

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Joined: Feb 2010

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Quote:

Originally Posted by EyeKantEven

Oh, comon! Yes, everyone knows about this crash, but who can immediately make the connection from the Captain's name alone?

The captain’s name really isn’t relevant, so why do you even care if people don’t remember? I’m not sure what the point of your “zinger” was. Most airline pilots know about the crash and know that captain was the poster boy for the airline. I’m not sure why you think people have forgotten about the crash and what the industry learned from it.

04-29-2025 | 08:20 AM

#284

rickair7777

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Joined: Jan 2006

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From: Engines Turn or People Swim

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailingfun

I do not understand flying with the ADSB off. What is the point of doing that in training? You won’t fly with a transponder on in combat but you don’t turn them off in training.

Not anymore you don't.

Presumably they did that because...

Either they want the full mission profile training to replicate the real mission to the greatest degree possible and ADS-B just got swept up in that.

OR

They were concerned that somebody would use ADS-B to track and document their profile, and you might not want the enemy(s) to know that in detail.

04-29-2025 | 08:24 AM

#285

rickair7777

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From: Engines Turn or People Swim

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2StgTurbine

I wouldn't have been able to recall his name. But I would have recognized it if I heard it, distinctive name and memorable event.

05-06-2025 | 04:14 AM

#286

hydrostream

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How would ADSB have made a difference here?

05-06-2025 | 04:49 AM

#287

60av8tor

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrostream

How would ADSB have made a difference here?

Not saying that it would have prevented the accident, but I belief the implication is a faster refresh rate on ATC’s radar…

05-06-2025 | 05:47 AM

#288

rickair7777

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From: Engines Turn or People Swim

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60av8tor

Not saying that it would have prevented the accident, but I belief the implication is a faster refresh rate on ATC’s radar…

Yeah it might have, in addition to refresh rate the position is the actual GPS/blended position from the ship's INS... if the controller knew all his dots had ADS-B lateral precision he may have been more concerned with dots trending to the merge. Secondary radar (Mode C) is fairly sloppy, primary radar precision depends on the installation, tower/approach radar is more precise that ARTCC but I don't how it compares to ADS-B/GPS.