lolwut

A 709 isn't a punitive action. Its the FAA using its authority to make sure your piloting ability is still worthy of your certificates.

A punitive action is a violation, fine, suspension, revocation, etc.

A 709 ride, though no fun at all, isn't a punitive action. Its a checkride meant to determine competency, not to punish.

Swedish Blender

I know the triggers, but that doesn't preclude the FAA from taking action since it isn't sole source. It just seems a lot of posters think ASAP = get out of jail. That's just not the case.

While a letter of warning or some other administrative action won't realistically mean anything to these guys (not looking for a job), it could to someone who thinks ASAP will save them.

Just trying to straighten out ASAP.

From the FAA site.
"All accepted sole-source reports are closed with a reply from the ERC, after satisfactory completion of corrective action. All accepted non-sole source reports, with evidence sufficient to prove a violation, are closed with FAA administrative action, after satisfactory completion of corrective action. All accepted non-sole source reports, without evidence sufficient to prove a violation are closed, after satisfactory completion of corrective action, with a
FAA letter of no action."

Ed Harley

If their ASAP report is included in the program, then all action towards the crew must be done through the direction of the ERC (Union, FAA, Company). It doesn't matter that it wasn't sole-source. The FAA or the company cannot also pursue this crew through any other means.

And the only reasons to exclude a report from the program are: Intentional disregard for safety, timeliness (report is filed too late, usually after 24 hours), medical issues, and falsification.

Again, some uninformed people think that ASAP is a "get out of jail free" card. Not true at all. The program allows pilots to freely share information about how this incident occurred, which can be very useful to all other pilots to prevent it from happening again. If the company or FAA chooses to go after this crew the old fashion way, then lawyers get involved, the pilots are directed not to say anything more than they have to, and consequently none of us really learn why this event happened and we are more likely to repeat the incident again.

rickair7777

This is what I was getting at, if ASAP is submitted properly and accepted it precludes the FAA from doing their own thing willy-nilly. You can get a letter of correction or somesuch, but I really don't think the FAA can give you a 709. The ERC can (and does) require pilots to do re-training, typically ground or sim with a company instructor. At our company they are specially designated instructors who are "read in" to the ASAP system. The emphasis is on training, not checking although you obviously must perform to standards in order the complete the training.

The FAA is limited in what it can do to you in a non sole-source situation.

If you participate in ASAP, are not excluded, and complete any assigned re-training I believe the worst you can get from the FAA would be a letter of correction, which might or might not be get-out-of-jail free. As somebody pointed out before, better to have this happen in the majors rather than the farm league.

skywatch

This is incorrect - the boilerplate ASAP MOU provides protection from certificate action by the FAA - period. Unless your company has a side agreement between the company and the union, the company is not prohibited from taking any action it wants (on a non-sole source event, like this one) using information gathered from outside the program. which is why, I will give you, lots of airlines have the side letter. Point being, it is the side letter, not the ASAP MOU, protecting you from company discipline.

Also, to be precise, "Reports of events involving apparent noncompliance with 14 CFR that is not inadvertent or that appears to involve an intentional disregard for safety, criminal activity, substance abuse, controlled substances, alcohol, or intentional falsification are excluded from the program."

Snarge

Any ASAP these guys file should address the company culture that contributes to this event...

vilcas

I don't believe this incident qualifies as a sole source. I am sure the ATC that was working the flight noticed they landed at the wrong airport and would have submitted a report to the FAA. At this point I believe it is no longer sole source. As far as what is allowed with the ASAP and not being sole source I am not sure. I would guess that if they broke sterile cockpit they will be in jeopardy of even having the ASAP report accepted. If you break sterile cockpit usually its not by accident its a deliberate and willful act that unfortunately a lot of crew members are guilty of.

cencal83406

There was no accident. Why would a CVR be a part of the ERC?

Snarge

Because the company owns the CVR data and they can pull it anytime they want... hopefully SWAPA has FOQA protection....

The CVR is controlled by the govt (NTSB) when there is an accident/incident...

captscott26

This crew is going to have an uphill battle getting this report accepted into ASAP. It's pretty tough to land a 737 at the wrong airport, on a 3700 ft runway, and not intentionally disregard safety and SOP.