Senate panel votes to weaken Flight 3407 safe - Page 4

#31

tunes , 07-04-2017 06:44 AM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Force One

It's been focused on plenty. His name was dragged through plenty of mud. Chances are you remember this CA's name, and if you do, then it was "focused on." Good Ole Boy Captain Fantastic Sully was on TV leading the charge against low time regional pilots, somehow believing that he himself was born with 10,000 hours.

Easy for someone senior to say. That doesn't remove the trip however, just pushes it to someone junior. Some people like red-eyes, some don't, but I don't know how anyone can function on this kind of trip. But obviously it's getting done if B6 is still scheduling them.

We don't have these at NK, at least not in my base. We do have something similar though, where we fly a redeye one night, followed by a 6AM departure the next day. Absolutely brutal. I too believe in "When it causes a fatigue problem, only then will it get fixed." Unfortunately for the cause, I simply use my seniority to bid around them. It's up to others to call in fatigued. (At least until I upgrade. Then I'll probably get loads of them.)

I'd much rather have that than the trips we have where you fly a redeye, followed by day sleep, same evening departure.

#32

Varsity , 07-04-2017 10:37 AM

Gets Weekends Off

Did this bill die?

#33

CBreezy , 07-04-2017 10:58 AM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varsity

Did this bill die?

Passed in committee

#34

SonicFlyer , 07-04-2017 11:14 AM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets

The CA put the power at idol

Yeah, bad idea, giving power to idols...

#35

hoover , 07-04-2017 12:15 PM

At your mom's house

Quote:

Originally Posted by at6d

I get asked about this from non-aviation folks all the time and it drives me nuts.

The Colgan accident was poor airmanship and was ridiculously preventable. Watch the NTSB animation.

The answer is that the captain failed pretty much every checkride he ever had. Why doesn't anybody focus on that part?

I'm all in favor of training standards and aerobatic training...but really--at some point we have to draw the line when it comes to the left and right seats.

I don't know...maybe if you failed your Private, Instrument, Commercial and ATP ratings you need to do something else.

100% spot on. No one talks about that.

#36

Packrat , 07-04-2017 12:24 PM

Banned

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterOfPuppets

The CA put the power at idol and didn't touch it until the stall. The ice probably didn't help but it certainly wasn't the cause.

Did you look at the tailplane icing video?

#37

ShyGuy , 07-04-2017 02:00 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Packrat

What you all seem to be forgetting is the High Priority training issue that cycle was tailplane icing. Take a look at the NASA video on YouTube about tailplane icing and see what the recovery is.

I've had it in a CV-580. If the two Colgan pilots misidentified the stall as tailplane icing then they applied the wrong corrective actions. Since they're both dead, there's no way to know what they were thinking, but in tailplane icing the first action is to bring the flaps up.

The NTSB looked into that thoroughly. They concluded the crews (mainly the CAs) actions were nothing of the sort of recognizing they had a tail plane stall, instead, they concluded it was consistent with a startle-effect for the pulling the nose back, and that the FO was most likely un-doing the last thing she did in order to try to fix the problem. That scenario sounds far more likely than two fatigued pilots flying along and instantly within less than a second (how long it took from stick shaker to pulling the stick back) recognizing it was a tail plane stall. Another thing I read was that in a tailplane stall the stick shaker doesn't go off. It goes off for a conventional approach-to-stall.

#38

Das Auto , 07-04-2017 02:15 PM

Gets Weekends Off

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShyGuy

You are correct. Fatigue was certainly a contributing factor too but a sharp, experienced First Officer who was also pilot monitoring at the time may well have just made the call out "airspeed" and broken the chain of events right there.

Unless you're a guy with 500 hours and itching to get into the right seat of an RJ, I really don't see the argument against having somewhat experienced pilots flying the kind of metal the regional airlines are operating right now.

#39

Std Deviation , 07-04-2017 05:58 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tunes

I'd much rather have that than the trips we have where you fly a redeye, followed by day sleep, same evening departure.

How about the trip that starts late PM JFK, fly to west coast. Sit 22 hrs. Fly red eye from west coast to BOS, early am arrival. Day sleep till 8pm, back to west coast. Then red eye back to JFK following night. 5 day trip. Imagine that trip for a reserve that comes on at say...3pm JFK time on day 1.

#40

full of luv , 07-05-2017 02:29 AM

Banned

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regularguy

Another issue with the crash was fatigue and commuting, but you all seem to have forgotten that.

You mean the fact that Colgan paid so little that the FO had to live with her parents across country and commute vie FEDEX redeye flights or that the captain felt he couldn't afford a hotel the night before he went to work and had to sleep in the lounge?