Didn't get the CJO
08-07-2023, 11:57 PM
#35
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,071
Originally Posted by flykin
I interviewed last week and I thought it went really well! Maybe 80-90% of the questions I was able to answer confidently and correctly. I was under the impression that if you get an interview invite from a regional, you basically already have the job; you just have to make sure you don't change their mind. So now I am wondering what I could've done that changed their mind? Some information about me: I am R-ATP eligible and I work as a CFI. The only hours I need for minimums is 28 more hours of XC. That's it!
I want to email the recruiter and ask for feedback, but this is my first airline interview and I don't know what the proper etiquette is for an email of this nature. I also would like to ask them when, or if, I get my second chance.
I want to email the recruiter and ask for feedback, but this is my first airline interview and I don't know what the proper etiquette is for an email of this nature. I also would like to ask them when, or if, I get my second chance.
When you're selected for an interview, a good approach is just as you've stated: it's your job to lose, unless you do anything that discounts you from the job. Simply because you're not hired however, doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Competitive minimums, hiring requirements quotas, or any number of other things might be the reason you're not selected on a given day. You will seldom, if ever, have an opportunity to go back to an interviewer and ask why you weren't hired; in many cases, that's not the person selecting you for the job, but rather that persons recommendations are forwarded on. Sometimes, if you really bungle something, it will be obvious. Other times, you should look at the interview as a learning experience, or practice for the next interview. It is your job to lose, but you didn't necessarily lose it. They didn't hire you. It's not the same thing. It's quite possible you did nothing wrong.
At this stage in the game, it's very possible that you may not be able to cover your student loans with this first job, or at least, on the starting pay. Three things about that: today's regional wages are the best they've ever been. Traditionally, one had to work at wages below the poverty line. Now, you don't. Wages, bonuses, etc are much better, but you've still got to be able to live within them. What you see as published wages may not be what your paycheck is: open time flying, and other aspects of the job such as trip rigs combine to allow you to make more than the base wage (though you should never count on it). Live within your means. Look at the bigger picture. And finally, be prepared to find another source of income. I worked multiple jobs for a lot of years in aviation. You might need to, also.
If this is your first industry job outside of flight instructing, then a wise investment is interview preparation and a resume review. These are done in person, online, or by video conferencing. Some companies have cognitive and other types of testing that you can familiarize yourself with prior to attending interviews. You should have prepared, but not memorized answers to a number of questions and understand the different types of questions in the interview; much of the time, it's not a technical review to see if you have the monkey skills to operate an aircraft, but a personality skills test: are you teachable, and can you get along with others? Are you a good fit. Tell-me-about-a-time-when type questions ask you to share yourself; times when you showed leadership, made a mistake, handled an emergency, or any number of other things. Interview prep places can help you with this. Choosing a correct suit, how to sit, eye contact, listening. and other basic interview skills are something that you should take the time and expense to learn. Most places will give you interviews, or do a mock interview, or a video taped interview so you can see how you present. They'll break it down, find appropriate ways to discuss your past, even correct resume formatting.
It's impossible reading this web board to say why you weren't hired in this case, but it may have been you, or it may not. Always take time after an interview to assess your performance, learn from it, adjust and get ready for the next.
Interviewing isn't always cheap. I've spent up to several thousand dollars for an interview; new suit and tailoring, travel, rental car and hotel, prep, etc. I've done cold interviews, no-notice interviews, even been offered jobs on the spot across the desk without the interview. I've had jobs that responded right away with a yes or no, others that took a year or two before I heard anything, and one that was about eight years or so before they called out of the blue and said come to work. One never knows.
Keep interviewing. Don't limit your field too much. Your mission right now is two-fold: gain experience and gain a good recommendation for the next job. You're entry level; beggars cannot always be choosers and at this stage, make no mistake, you are the beggar. Act accordingly. If you are able to secure a job that gives good experience but doesn't pay well, be prepared to handle your finances on your own through additional work for the same employer, a second job, deferral of loans, selling things, etc. You might not get the job in the CRJ, but a BE99 might be calling your name and offer the experience that gets you the next job. You have to start somewhere.
Originally Posted by flykin
One thing is for sure, I can not stand this instructing gig any longer. I want to make progress in my career and make some money finally.
I've long ago lost track of those who said they were special and shouldn't have to instruct; a great many of us have done it, and a number of us enjoy it, or continue. Every student deserves better than an instructor who only marks time until he can get out. Pull up the adult pants, cinch up the belt, and again, focus. You can stand it. Until you have something else, you must. You're brand new. You're extremely low time. You don't have to own the world now. You have time. Aviation requires sacrifices. Make them.
You may have to work a little harder to make your financial goals for now, or you may be like many others and struggle through them. Over the years, in addition to flying, I turned wrenches, scrubbed supermarket floors, worked in a greenhouse, packed parachutes, drove a delivery truck, worked as an armed guard, substitute taught high school, cleaned movie theaters at night, and a number of other things. We do what we must. You do what you must, because you must.
Originally Posted by flykin
P.S. I already applied to 11 other airlines. Envoy said I didn't meet their minimum hours. Republic.. well, they tried to promote that scam where you work for their 135 partner. Not a word from any of the others.
I made more money flying a single engine airplane than I did as a widebody captain; money isn't everything, but neither is size, seat, company, or assignment. You have a long career ahead of you: don't be so anxious to claim the final prize, or you'll miss the journey, and believe me, most of your career is journey.
08-08-2023, 01:21 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2019
Position: 757/767 CA
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Your question is valid, as is your position: when you're invited for an interview, it is your interview to lose. That said, there are no guarantees. Your time and experience falls short of the minimums, but whatever you've seen online of others getting hired for a given position, the only real minimums that count are unpublished: competitive minimums. These are what you're competing against on the day you interview. If you happen to meet the minimums, but everyone else shows up with 20,000 hours and a type rating, then regardless of what's published, the minimums that day, in that interview session, are 20,000 hours and a type rating, unless you have something else equivalent or better going for you.
When you're selected for an interview, a good approach is just as you've stated: it's your job to lose, unless you do anything that discounts you from the job. Simply because you're not hired however, doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Competitive minimums, hiring requirements quotas, or any number of other things might be the reason you're not selected on a given day. You will seldom, if ever, have an opportunity to go back to an interviewer and ask why you weren't hired; in many cases, that's not the person selecting you for the job, but rather that persons recommendations are forwarded on. Sometimes, if you really bungle something, it will be obvious. Other times, you should look at the interview as a learning experience, or practice for the next interview. It is your job to lose, but you didn't necessarily lose it. They didn't hire you. It's not the same thing. It's quite possible you did nothing wrong.
At this stage in the game, it's very possible that you may not be able to cover your student loans with this first job, or at least, on the starting pay. Three things about that: today's regional wages are the best they've ever been. Traditionally, one had to work at wages below the poverty line. Now, you don't. Wages, bonuses, etc are much better, but you've still got to be able to live within them. What you see as published wages may not be what your paycheck is: open time flying, and other aspects of the job such as trip rigs combine to allow you to make more than the base wage (though you should never count on it). Live within your means. Look at the bigger picture. And finally, be prepared to find another source of income. I worked multiple jobs for a lot of years in aviation. You might need to, also.
If this is your first industry job outside of flight instructing, then a wise investment is interview preparation and a resume review. These are done in person, online, or by video conferencing. Some companies have cognitive and other types of testing that you can familiarize yourself with prior to attending interviews. You should have prepared, but not memorized answers to a number of questions and understand the different types of questions in the interview; much of the time, it's not a technical review to see if you have the monkey skills to operate an aircraft, but a personality skills test: are you teachable, and can you get along with others? Are you a good fit. Tell-me-about-a-time-when type questions ask you to share yourself; times when you showed leadership, made a mistake, handled an emergency, or any number of other things. Interview prep places can help you with this. Choosing a correct suit, how to sit, eye contact, listening. and other basic interview skills are something that you should take the time and expense to learn. Most places will give you interviews, or do a mock interview, or a video taped interview so you can see how you present. They'll break it down, find appropriate ways to discuss your past, even correct resume formatting.
It's impossible reading this web board to say why you weren't hired in this case, but it may have been you, or it may not. Always take time after an interview to assess your performance, learn from it, adjust and get ready for the next.
Interviewing isn't always cheap. I've spent up to several thousand dollars for an interview; new suit and tailoring, travel, rental car and hotel, prep, etc. I've done cold interviews, no-notice interviews, even been offered jobs on the spot across the desk without the interview. I've had jobs that responded right away with a yes or no, others that took a year or two before I heard anything, and one that was about eight years or so before they called out of the blue and said come to work. One never knows.
Keep interviewing. Don't limit your field too much. Your mission right now is two-fold: gain experience and gain a good recommendation for the next job. You're entry level; beggars cannot always be choosers and at this stage, make no mistake, you are the beggar. Act accordingly. If you are able to secure a job that gives good experience but doesn't pay well, be prepared to handle your finances on your own through additional work for the same employer, a second job, deferral of loans, selling things, etc. You might not get the job in the CRJ, but a BE99 might be calling your name and offer the experience that gets you the next job. You have to start somewhere.
You still don't meet ATP minimums. Focus.
I've long ago lost track of those who said they were special and shouldn't have to instruct; a great many of us have done it, and a number of us enjoy it, or continue. Every student deserves better than an instructor who only marks time until he can get out. Pull up the adult pants, cinch up the belt, and again, focus. You can stand it. Until you have something else, you must. You're brand new. You're extremely low time. You don't have to own the world now. You have time. Aviation requires sacrifices. Make them.
You may have to work a little harder to make your financial goals for now, or you may be like many others and struggle through them. Over the years, in addition to flying, I turned wrenches, scrubbed supermarket floors, worked in a greenhouse, packed parachutes, drove a delivery truck, worked as an armed guard, substitute taught high school, cleaned movie theaters at night, and a number of other things. We do what we must. You do what you must, because you must.
There's more in this industry than airlines. Again, do what you must.
I made more money flying a single engine airplane than I did as a widebody captain; money isn't everything, but neither is size, seat, company, or assignment. You have a long career ahead of you: don't be so anxious to claim the final prize, or you'll miss the journey, and believe me, most of your career is journey.
When you're selected for an interview, a good approach is just as you've stated: it's your job to lose, unless you do anything that discounts you from the job. Simply because you're not hired however, doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Competitive minimums, hiring requirements quotas, or any number of other things might be the reason you're not selected on a given day. You will seldom, if ever, have an opportunity to go back to an interviewer and ask why you weren't hired; in many cases, that's not the person selecting you for the job, but rather that persons recommendations are forwarded on. Sometimes, if you really bungle something, it will be obvious. Other times, you should look at the interview as a learning experience, or practice for the next interview. It is your job to lose, but you didn't necessarily lose it. They didn't hire you. It's not the same thing. It's quite possible you did nothing wrong.
At this stage in the game, it's very possible that you may not be able to cover your student loans with this first job, or at least, on the starting pay. Three things about that: today's regional wages are the best they've ever been. Traditionally, one had to work at wages below the poverty line. Now, you don't. Wages, bonuses, etc are much better, but you've still got to be able to live within them. What you see as published wages may not be what your paycheck is: open time flying, and other aspects of the job such as trip rigs combine to allow you to make more than the base wage (though you should never count on it). Live within your means. Look at the bigger picture. And finally, be prepared to find another source of income. I worked multiple jobs for a lot of years in aviation. You might need to, also.
If this is your first industry job outside of flight instructing, then a wise investment is interview preparation and a resume review. These are done in person, online, or by video conferencing. Some companies have cognitive and other types of testing that you can familiarize yourself with prior to attending interviews. You should have prepared, but not memorized answers to a number of questions and understand the different types of questions in the interview; much of the time, it's not a technical review to see if you have the monkey skills to operate an aircraft, but a personality skills test: are you teachable, and can you get along with others? Are you a good fit. Tell-me-about-a-time-when type questions ask you to share yourself; times when you showed leadership, made a mistake, handled an emergency, or any number of other things. Interview prep places can help you with this. Choosing a correct suit, how to sit, eye contact, listening. and other basic interview skills are something that you should take the time and expense to learn. Most places will give you interviews, or do a mock interview, or a video taped interview so you can see how you present. They'll break it down, find appropriate ways to discuss your past, even correct resume formatting.
It's impossible reading this web board to say why you weren't hired in this case, but it may have been you, or it may not. Always take time after an interview to assess your performance, learn from it, adjust and get ready for the next.
Interviewing isn't always cheap. I've spent up to several thousand dollars for an interview; new suit and tailoring, travel, rental car and hotel, prep, etc. I've done cold interviews, no-notice interviews, even been offered jobs on the spot across the desk without the interview. I've had jobs that responded right away with a yes or no, others that took a year or two before I heard anything, and one that was about eight years or so before they called out of the blue and said come to work. One never knows.
Keep interviewing. Don't limit your field too much. Your mission right now is two-fold: gain experience and gain a good recommendation for the next job. You're entry level; beggars cannot always be choosers and at this stage, make no mistake, you are the beggar. Act accordingly. If you are able to secure a job that gives good experience but doesn't pay well, be prepared to handle your finances on your own through additional work for the same employer, a second job, deferral of loans, selling things, etc. You might not get the job in the CRJ, but a BE99 might be calling your name and offer the experience that gets you the next job. You have to start somewhere.
You still don't meet ATP minimums. Focus.
I've long ago lost track of those who said they were special and shouldn't have to instruct; a great many of us have done it, and a number of us enjoy it, or continue. Every student deserves better than an instructor who only marks time until he can get out. Pull up the adult pants, cinch up the belt, and again, focus. You can stand it. Until you have something else, you must. You're brand new. You're extremely low time. You don't have to own the world now. You have time. Aviation requires sacrifices. Make them.
You may have to work a little harder to make your financial goals for now, or you may be like many others and struggle through them. Over the years, in addition to flying, I turned wrenches, scrubbed supermarket floors, worked in a greenhouse, packed parachutes, drove a delivery truck, worked as an armed guard, substitute taught high school, cleaned movie theaters at night, and a number of other things. We do what we must. You do what you must, because you must.
There's more in this industry than airlines. Again, do what you must.
I made more money flying a single engine airplane than I did as a widebody captain; money isn't everything, but neither is size, seat, company, or assignment. You have a long career ahead of you: don't be so anxious to claim the final prize, or you'll miss the journey, and believe me, most of your career is journey.
To the OP, if you want to get hired, stop being so picky. Your RATP isn’t that impressive despite the reduced hiring mins. Get a job, gain experience, go from there.
08-08-2023, 09:02 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2019
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
I made more money flying a single engine airplane than I did as a widebody captain; money isn't everything, but neither is size, seat, company, or assignment. You have a long career ahead of you: don't be so anxious to claim the final prize, or you'll miss the journey, and believe me, most of your career is journey.
08-08-2023, 04:26 PM
#39
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2023
Posts: 6
I can relate here, 4 ga failures yes i know its alot but I own each and every single one of them and have learned a enormous amount from each one. I realize this isn't the best position to be in, and yes i do wish i did things differently while i was in training in GA( change CFI's) but it is what it is and only want to move forward and advance my career.
On this topic, I was a skywest cadet, for 1.5 years before my interview(for whatever thats worth). I can't help but feel i got that interview only because I am a cadet because they advertise "guaranteed final interview" Maybe a box checking thing? I don't know and prob wont ever. I really thought i nailed the interview, every single answer from the interviewer was chased by an "amazing", "beautiful" or " awesome job" So it really gave me the impression I did well, not to mention I studied really hard for it for almost a month. Got the TBNT. Can't help but feel like these failures were the culprit, some say its because they don't need FO's. In the end who knows, maybe the board said nope another guy deserves it more, but i really gave it my all and thats all i could do. Will reapply, hoping to get hired on by a regional, aviation is my ultimate passion and my dream is to become an airline pilot.
On this topic, I was a skywest cadet, for 1.5 years before my interview(for whatever thats worth). I can't help but feel i got that interview only because I am a cadet because they advertise "guaranteed final interview" Maybe a box checking thing? I don't know and prob wont ever. I really thought i nailed the interview, every single answer from the interviewer was chased by an "amazing", "beautiful" or " awesome job" So it really gave me the impression I did well, not to mention I studied really hard for it for almost a month. Got the TBNT. Can't help but feel like these failures were the culprit, some say its because they don't need FO's. In the end who knows, maybe the board said nope another guy deserves it more, but i really gave it my all and thats all i could do. Will reapply, hoping to get hired on by a regional, aviation is my ultimate passion and my dream is to become an airline pilot.
08-08-2023, 07:43 PM
#40
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,071
Originally Posted by arthurbaxter
I can relate here, 4 ga failures yes i know its alot but I own each and every single one of them and have learned a enormous amount from each one. I realize this isn't the best position to be in, and yes i do wish i did things differently while i was in training in GA( change CFI's) but it is what it is and only want to move forward and advance my career.
On this topic, I was a skywest cadet, for 1.5 years before my interview(for whatever thats worth). I can't help but feel i got that interview only because I am a cadet because they advertise "guaranteed final interview" Maybe a box checking thing? I don't know and prob wont ever. I really thought i nailed the interview, every single answer from the interviewer was chased by an "amazing", "beautiful" or " awesome job" So it really gave me the impression I did well, not to mention I studied really hard for it for almost a month. Got the TBNT. Can't help but feel like these failures were the culprit, some say its because they don't need FO's. In the end who knows, maybe the board said nope another guy deserves it more, but i really gave it my all and thats all i could do. Will reapply, hoping to get hired on by a regional, aviation is my ultimate passion and my dream is to become an airline pilot.
On this topic, I was a skywest cadet, for 1.5 years before my interview(for whatever thats worth). I can't help but feel i got that interview only because I am a cadet because they advertise "guaranteed final interview" Maybe a box checking thing? I don't know and prob wont ever. I really thought i nailed the interview, every single answer from the interviewer was chased by an "amazing", "beautiful" or " awesome job" So it really gave me the impression I did well, not to mention I studied really hard for it for almost a month. Got the TBNT. Can't help but feel like these failures were the culprit, some say its because they don't need FO's. In the end who knows, maybe the board said nope another guy deserves it more, but i really gave it my all and thats all i could do. Will reapply, hoping to get hired on by a regional, aviation is my ultimate passion and my dream is to become an airline pilot.
You're seeking a restricted ATP, which suggests you lack the experience for an ATP certificate (or age?), and you've had four failures thus far?
You studied for a whole month? An entire month? What were you studying?
Do you really think that hiring pilots has anything to do with what one "deserves," or that anyone cares? It doesn't. The airline is hiring personnel to operate very expensive pieces of equipment with a lot of paying passengers who all potentially have families with lawyers on speed dial. They want someone who is trainable, who can get along, and who won't land them n a law suit or bend metal. Fair has nothing to do with it, nor do they care about whether someone is "deserving."
Originally Posted by Stratoliner
Maybe he had bad luck with the ****heads that exist in the GA world?
There are **** heads in general avaition at a greater percentage than the airlines, corporate world, government, or militlary?
No.
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