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Finally we've reached the point. I didn't have to ask them, they told me. ALPA did nothing for them, it wouldn't have made any difference if they had a union or didn't. The only difference was they paid 2% of their income for no benefit. All of the "benefits" of ALPA were completely ignored by the company, when they went to their reps it took 2-3 years to get an answer, which invariably was "we're still working on it". Look, if you are happy with ALPA thats wonderful but please don't try to talk us into it if we're happy without. I'm not trying to talk you into getting rid of ALPA, am I?
That's precisely why I made the caveat that if they were honest, they would tell you something totally different. Can YOU honestly say that Mesa pilots would be better off without ANY union protection? What about TSA, RAH? Do you think Ornstein would have been nicer to them? Like I said, we are all just one CEO away from being Ornstiened.Originally Posted by SkyWestPilot1
"Let me put it this way, what would those guys from other ALPA regionals say if you asked them if they would be better off or worse off by being non-union at those regional airlines and therefore pay no dues?" Finally we've reached the point. I didn't have to ask them, they told me. ALPA did nothing for them, it wouldn't have made any difference if they had a union or didn't. The only difference was they paid 2% of their income for no benefit. All of the "benefits" of ALPA were completely ignored by the company, when they went to their reps it took 2-3 years to get an answer, which invariably was "we're still working on it". Look, if you are happy with ALPA thats wonderful but please don't try to talk us into it if we're happy without. I'm not trying to talk you into getting rid of ALPA, am I?
We are just expressing our opinions based on facts. Take it how you wish. Keep riding the coat tails and rationalizing it.
PS What about Mr T Williams?
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ALPA News Release
ALPA Urges President Bush to Sign Age 65 into Law
WASHINGTON, D.C.—Capt. John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), issued the following statement after the U.S. Senate unanimously approved a bill to raise the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots to 65. The U.S. House of Representatives passed the same language, H.R. 4343, on December 11.
“ALPA has worked very hard to ensure that its Executive Board’s recommendations, intended to protect the piloting profession in the face of a change that was certain to come, were included in any age-change legislation.
“I am pleased to report to our members that this legislation reflects the direction of ALPA leadership. ALPA has been working closely with both the Senate and the House to ensure that the legislation moves to the White House as rapidly as possible. We urge President Bush to sign the bill swiftly.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union representing more than 60,000 pilots at 42 airlines in the U.S. and Canada.
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I stand corrected. ALPA is powerful enough to make EVERY SINGLE congressman vote for it and then make the president sign the bill. All in a matter of, literally, a couple of days.Originally Posted by BHopper88
Here ya go Nevets: this a good source for yaALPA News Release
ALPA Urges President Bush to Sign Age 65 into Law
WASHINGTON, D.C.—Capt. John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), issued the following statement after the U.S. Senate unanimously approved a bill to raise the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots to 65. The U.S. House of Representatives passed the same language, H.R. 4343, on December 11.
“ALPA has worked very hard to ensure that its Executive Board’s recommendations, intended to protect the piloting profession in the face of a change that was certain to come, were included in any age-change legislation.
“I am pleased to report to our members that this legislation reflects the direction of ALPA leadership. ALPA has been working closely with both the Senate and the House to ensure that the legislation moves to the White House as rapidly as possible. We urge President Bush to sign the bill swiftly.”
Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union representing more than 60,000 pilots at 42 airlines in the U.S. and Canada.
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I don't think he intended to be cocky at all. Are you implying that you're somehow entitled to OO bases if a merger were to occur? No one forced anybody to work for their current carriers. And if some people aren't mature enough to realize that the job of a regional pilot is a BIG roll of the dice, then they should have a seat and try to learn from the grown ups. Originally Posted by atrdriver
Cocky pr1ck much? For some of us on the west coast, OO and QX weren't an option because they weren't hiring while we were in the job market.
If all three companies ever merged, it would be wise to have fences. BIG fences
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Define "Good". PCL and XJ are getting ready to take it up the tailpipe, and they have one of the "best" MEC's out there. However, as good as they are, it seems like the company and the judge are still going to cram that crappy term sheet down the pilots' throats. Now, I know your response is going to be "ALPA must work within the confines of the RLA blah, blah, blah...."Originally Posted by Nevets
1. ALPA is as good as your pilot group. Its your peers who vote people into leadership positions. ALPA national has NOTHING to do with the character of the people that are working for any particular airline that happen to get democratically elected by their coworkers. Let me put it this way, what would those guys from other ALPA regionals say if you asked them if they would be better off or worse off by being non-union at those regional airlines and therefore pay no dues? My guess is if they were being honest they would say that they would be worse off. Just imagine how much worse pilots at Mesa and TSA would be if they were non-union and saving 1.95% in tax deductible union dues? We are all one CEO away from working for the next Ornstein!
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It's clear that while ALPA TALKS a great game about moving the profession forward, the actual results say something totally different. It's clear that separate and different contracts play one carrier against another, ultimately harming the profession as a whole. While in the early days ALPA was "jacking-up" different corners of the house and management cried foul, management has caught on and learned how to jack-down those same corners of the house. Originally Posted by Nevets
2. There is no conflict of interest. If you understood ALPA, CPAs, and pilot contracts, you would realize that your analogy is flawed.
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Sorry, people aren't trying to get on with FedEx for their "super-duper ASAP program!". Originally Posted by Nevets
3. How about your fellow pilot Mr Douglas? Anyway, your welcome for ASAP, FOQO, FFDO, CASS, KCM, TCAS, GPWS, ALS, etc.
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And this just goes to show how ALPA is, by and large, just along for the ride as the pilots (while collecting their 2%) The one common denominator in those whole mess is that, conveniently for ALPA, ASA dues are just as green as Delta dues.Originally Posted by Nevets
Age 65 was inevitable. That's why it passed UNANIMOUSLY in BOTH houses of congress and signed by the president in a matter of TWO DAYS. Not ONE person voted against it. ALPA is not that powerful.
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1. Again, let me put it this way. If there was no union, do you think management would negotiate with themselves on what to offer the pilots or would they just impose the most draconian cuts they can get away with? They wouldn't even have to get permission from the judge to do so.Quote:
Define "Good". PCL and XJ are getting ready to take it up the tailpipe, and they have one of the "best" MEC's out there. However, as good as they are, it seems like the company and the judge are still going to cram that crappy term sheet down the pilots' throats. Now, I know your response is going to be "ALPA must work within the confines of the RLA blah, blah, blah...."Originally Posted by Nevets
1. ALPA is as good as your pilot group. Its your peers who vote people into leadership positions. ALPA national has NOTHING to do with the character of the people that are working for any particular airline that happen to get democratically elected by their coworkers. Let me put it this way, what would those guys from other ALPA regionals say if you asked them if they would be better off or worse off by being non-union at those regional airlines and therefore pay no dues? My guess is if they were being honest they would say that they would be worse off. Just imagine how much worse pilots at Mesa and TSA would be if they were non-union and saving 1.95% in tax deductible union dues? We are all one CEO away from working for the next Ornstein!
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It's clear that while ALPA TALKS a great game about moving the profession forward, the actual results say something totally different. It's clear that separate and different contracts play one carrier against another, ultimately harming the profession as a whole. While in the early days ALPA was "jacking-up" different corners of the house and management cried foul, management has caught on and learned how to jack-down those same corners of the house. Originally Posted by Nevets
2. There is no conflict of interest. If you understood ALPA, CPAs, and pilot contracts, you would realize that your analogy is flawed.
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Sorry, people aren't trying to get on with FedEx for their "super-duper ASAP program!". Originally Posted by Nevets
3. How about your fellow pilot Mr Douglas? Anyway, your welcome for ASAP, FOQO, FFDO, CASS, KCM, TCAS, GPWS, ALS, etc.
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And this just goes to show how ALPA is, by and large, just along for the ride as the pilots (while collecting their 2%) The one common denominator in those whole mess is that, conveniently for ALPA, ASA dues are just as green as Delta dues.
Originally Posted by Nevets
Age 65 was inevitable. That's why it passed UNANIMOUSLY in BOTH houses of congress and signed by the president in a matter of TWO DAYS. Not ONE person voted against it. ALPA is not that powerful.
2. You're confused. It's management that plays different pilot groups against each other, especially at the regional level. Regional MECs simply try to negotiate for the best pay and work rules for whatever scraps their management was able to bid for.
3. The point wasn't that people are trying to get to FDX for their ASAP. The point was that non-union pilots are riding the coat tails of the FDX pilots and the rest of us yet are happy to apply there an pay their union dues if they get hired.
4. If ALPA was just along for the ride, age 65 would have been much worse.
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Serious question, how could it have been worse? Age 70 was not going to happen without ICAO precedent.Originally Posted by Nevets
4. If ALPA was just along for the ride, age 65 would have been much worse.
Enhanced medical exams and standards is about all I can think of, and I suspect the airlines would fight against that... washing out half the pilot force by age 55 would only enhance the "big pilot shortage" defeat the point for them.
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Enhanced medical exams and standards is about all I can think of, and I suspect the airlines would fight against that... washing out half the pilot force by age 55 would only enhance the "big pilot shortage" defeat the point for them.
The biggest thing was making it so guys couldn't come back into the seniority list.Quote:
Serious question, how could it have been worse? Age 70 was not going to happen without ICAO precedent.Originally Posted by Nevets
4. If ALPA was just along for the ride, age 65 would have been much worse.
Enhanced medical exams and standards is about all I can think of, and I suspect the airlines would fight against that... washing out half the pilot force by age 55 would only enhance the "big pilot shortage" defeat the point for them.
