While both are good options, I’d go with AA. I think I read something like 68% of their pilots will retire in the next 12 years. That’s unbelievable growth. Plenty of widebodies with international variety which you will need after 5-10 years of monotonous domestic flying. Personally, I would bid the more comfortable Airbus and let it fly me around until I could bid the most desirable base/equipment.

In the end, go with what your gut tells you.

 

Words to live by......

 

I don’t think “having the desire to fly long haul international” is the ONLY reason to choose AA over SWA. I was at a narrowbody only major headquartered in NYC before jumping ship to AA this year. One of the things that struck me after someone pointed it out is that having a large widebody fleet effectively boosts your narrowbody seniority under the assumption that our A330/777/787 positions will remain senior and continue to be more attractive positions than our 737/320 postions.

What I’m trying to say is I think it would have taken me ~30 years to crack top 10% of A320 Captains at My last airline versus probably being in the top 10% of 320 or 737 captains at AA in half that time because of massive retirements and the effect of having widebodies on property. We have Over 3,000 pilots (CA and FO) flying the 330/787/777 who could all hold 737 Captain but choose otherwise. Therefore allowing those 3000+ positions to go to more junior folks.

Even if you have no desire to fly long haul or widebodies and only want to fly Day turns down to the islands as a senior Captain or FO on a 320/737, I think that will happen a lot quicker at AA. The movement on the 737/320 at AA should be pretty amazing due to the massive retirement wave and plenty of people senior to you eventually bidding out of the left seat of the 737/320 and into the right or left seat of the 330/777/787.

 

AA’s work rules are not “terrible.” That is a broad sweeping generalization. What we do have are the remnants of a BK contract which still has some facets of BK work rules, such as no hotel language , the inability to pick up a trip over the footprint of a displaced-IOE trip, and bad STD/LTD language, to name a few. We also don’t get the big profit sharing that DL,UA and SW gets. Those things are all high priority items for our contract negotiations and Will Get fixed with the next contract.
That said, we have industry leading duty/trip rigs (same as DL and UA plus we get paid for “sit time” if we have sits that are more than 2hrs.)
We also have live 24/7 trip trading starting on the 24th of each month (for next months schedule.).. nobody else has that and it has made me lots of $$$ trading out of undesirable trips for much better ones, pretty much anytime during the day/night.
Our reserve system is pretty decent, you can either bid for Long Call or Short call for the entire month.
Those are just a few areas where our QOL is decent.
AA has a great pilot group, I've made life long friends here who won’t hesitate to give you the shirts off their backs. Overall pretty good chief pilots too. Been here almost 20 years and have had zero regrets with how my career has gone.

Overall, AAs work rules are pretty comparable to the others with the exception of those items above. To call them “terrible” is a stretch and usually comes from bitter folks who came from other airlines that continue to live at that previous airline insisting that theirs was the right, and best, way while constantly ripping on everything AA (you know you who are here on this forum... )

I’ve been averaging 15 days off /month for 85ish hours as a 60% living in base domestic NB CA. Great QOL driving to work and I earned pretty much the same as my DL/UA/SW buds in similar bid statuses.

That said... tough choice man. I wish you the best in your decision, you really won’t go wrong with either airline. Despite AAs debt they are going nowhere, these things are cyclical in this industry and change on a whim. I also absolutely love SW, have a few friends there and always admired the culture there. Agian, can’t go wrong with either choice, Good luck!

 

By “terrible” I meant SWA has better rigs and soft pay. We have 24/7 trading with the company starting the 25th. Trading with other pilots starts the 11th or so.

Swa has the ability to work as much as you want as long as you’re FAR legal, no pay cap limits. Line holders get 17-20 off. Rsv gets 15/16 off and trips assigned go above guarantee basically, same with OT pick-ups. LTD/STD also needs to be fixed in that we pay for it and it should be company provided but the benefit is good from a comparison sake. Hoping DL/UA/AA sign before WN this go around so we’re not on the bottom like after ‘16.

Never had a bad experience with AA pilots, but your gate agents are awful. Never seen a more miserable bunch of people in my life....prob goes back to Ch. 11 days. AA does have airframe options and a giant sucking sound from retirements so upgrade should be relatively quicker depending on what your desires are. Either way it’s not a bad position to be in and a great career at either place.

 

Good to know about SWA work rules, thanks. Concur about many, many agents.. that’s why I go out of my way to kill them with kindness every flight I work/non rev on. It pays off ten times over. We do have quite a few that are awesome. Unfortunately they deal with a lot of intimidation from above so they’re already frustrated by the time the pax show up... the pax are already probably ticked off by AA.. and it just deteriorates from there

 

There’s quite a bit of that everywhere sadly. Mgt only cares about on time numbers so gate agents are getting the brunt of it from both sides (above and from pax). Not a job I’d want to do for sure. 😬

 

aa73...

Well said! My buds from there say the toxic environment for which I left long ago as you recall, is still prevalent but not nearly as much as the post 9/11 decade.

Good hearing from you here JP!

Kap
PL

 

Disclaimer: Second hand info and have no dog in this fight, I work at neither but have close friends that work at both.

First of all, toss the culture argument. Ship sailed decades ago and even if it hadn't, hot pants and room parties don't pay mortgages. (more likely lead to a ruinous divorce...or two).

On to what really matter$... Having worn many suits, the largest factor for me, by far, would be stability, especially if I were looking out 30 years. All the quick upgrades and WB flying mean zip in the unemployment line. There's no telling what the future holds but if the past is any indication, not to mention balance sheets (AA has HUGE debt and exposure with intl. LCC competition), WN is a hands-down favorite. Granted, past performance isn't always a forecast, but WN's domestic focus and a 40 year unbroken track record of profitability with zero layoffs is certainly more reassuring than the chronic boom-bust cycles of AA. A recession is coming and virtually guaranteed to occur more than once during the 30 years you have left.

While the Max is certainly a concern, it's likely a temporary one, and WN is still managing to make profits in spite of it. Hook or crook, WN's management will surely overcome this, one way or another eventually. While this will further delay an already long upgrade time, 4 stripes aren't quite as critical to income as many might believe: senior FO access to premium pay (150% bump) trumps junior captain (reserve) access (~130% bump over FO at straight pay) . Although premium has dried up, my FO friends at WN, admittedly Ho-Ho's, were making more than junior NB captains at the majors. Some 'Tournament' senior WN FO's allegedly cracked the $400K mark in 2018. Those days are over --for now, but with WNs flexibility and rigs, even mid-time FOs can still do quite well ($250K - $300K) with some creativity. Under the current contract, 2020 FO rates will top out at almost $200/hr (5 yr ~$170) which, IF times return to what they were, could still be quite lucrative. I understand even a slug at WN can easily crack 120 hrs/mo with plenty of days off. WN has always been associated with hard work but I'm told that has softened and even mid-seniority FOs can hold lines containing turns and 2-day trips, many of which only have 2 legs per day(?). Perhaps those who work there can chime in, but that doesn't sound rough at all.

All that said, if WB Intl flying is a priority over stability, you might not be overly thrilled with WN. No doubt those schedules, destinations, pay, and long overnights are tough to beat, and previously took years to hold. Although most at this level care more about $$ and schedules, if the 'prestige of command' is a must, than AA is probably a better choice.

Enviable problem to have. Both are good, but very different choices. Time changes everything so it's kind of a WAG any way you roll the dice.

My 2 cents. Again all second hand, but your 'Pro/Con' regarding stability is an important one that most would agree puts WN out front. Best of luck with your decision.

 

Hey Kap! SSDD lol.
Happy New Year!