haarry

So in this situation what are the current timelines like?
How senior is DFW for AA and DAL for SW?
How long to get to each base? Hold a line?
How long to CA in each base?

flyguy81

For SWA, most jr DAL FO was hired 3/19.

Most jr DAL CA was hired 12/06.

Plan on 8-12 mos for a line. Should become more Jr once Max comes back.

aa73

AA bottom dfw FO today is probably a 1 to 1.5year wait. But it fluctuates... a year ago they were still hiring right into DFW -80 FO.

Bottom DFW CA is running around 7 years right now.

MudhammedCJ

That's an AirTran dude. Summer '08 is the actual true seniority of the bottom Dallas captain. The list shows the AirTran original hire date. That isn't where they are meshed into the list.

THEKERNALKLINK

I was really puzzled until I saw what you added. I'm far from "senior" as a CA, but if the original post was correct, I'd barely have been moved over to the left seat.

Either way, I'd never want to be stationed that close to the head shed. All the dancing and cartwheels. Flair days... (grumble).

TexasBigJet

Hi Ya'll,

I hate resurrecting this thread, but having spent the better part of a month doing my research, talking to folks I know, and crunching numbers, I want to run some stuff by the folks on this forum. Here's a pros and cons list I made: Pros:

AA:

- Widebody international opportunities
- Seniority movement. 76 FO in 2 years/77 or 78 FO in 4 years. DFW NB CA in 5 years (maybe less). WB CA in 18 years.

- QOL better if able to bid Reserve (able to sit at home for long stretches without being called?)

SWA:

- Solid Company, great brand and customer service; usually a top 3 ranked airline

- Better able to withstand an economic slowdown

- Growing Company

- More opportunity for premium and open time (when the MAX returns?)

- Premium for later land time and holidays

- Better profit sharing

- Better variety of quality domiciles
- Vacation

Cons:

AA:

- Terrible management; by far the worst in the industry

- Ranked worst airline (3 out of 5 years)

- Not in a good position to withstand an economic slowdown

- Contract is worst in the industry (will it get better?)

- Profit Sharing is a joke

SWA:

- 737 for entire career (maybe)

- Limited international

- Work more; more block, more legs?

- 10 year upgrade to Dallas CA

- Reserve rules? (no LC, and not able to “sit” for long stretches of time without getting called)

- Future commutability from Austin potentially more difficult due to AM/PM construct.

I ran a career- earnings spreadsheet using the current payrates for both companies, and the numbers are astoundingly close (I wish I could somehow post a copy of it on here). I assumed a 2% profit sharing at AA and a 16% Direct Contribution. For SWA I assumed a 10% profit sharing, and 15% direct contribution. I did not include per diem as I usually use it anyways, and its a wash for both companies. I ran it assuming a 5 yr NB CA upgrade, and 18 yr WB CA upgrade at AA (those are the current timelines for someone hired today, and being based out of DFW). I did not use the 2 year 76 FO upgrade at AA because those are going away, and I did not use WB FO in this exercise, because given the opportunity, in order to maximize earnings, someone would choose NB CA at that decision point (QOL consideration aside). I assumed a 10 yr CA upgrade at SWA for someone being based out of Dallas. I also ran it using 3 different credit assumptions 1) SC Guarantee of 76 for AA and 87 TFP for SWA 2) 15-day Average of 80 hours for AA and 100 TFP for SWA 3) High of 100 for AA and 140 for SWA. In using the average comparison, I tried to make an "apples-to-apples" comparison. In talking to folks, it seems that the avg AA guy will get about 80 hours for 15 days of work, while a SWA guy will get about 90 TFP for 12 days of work. Add in another 3 day trip, and that brings the SWA pilot up to 100 TFP on the conservative side.
Here's the breakdown:

1) For guarantee and the above assumptions, over a 30-year career an AA pilot will gross at $9,194,492.00, while a SWA pilot will gross at $8,315,644.73 in career earnings. That is a difference of $878,847.00 favoring the AA pilot.

2) For an average 15-day work month (using 80 hours for AA and 100 TFP for SWA), over a 30-year career an AA pilot will gross at $9,678,413, while a SWA pilot will gross at $9,558,212.33 in career earnings. That is a difference of $120,200.00 favoring the AA pilot.

3) For hustling, (using 100 hours for AA and 140TFP for SWA), over a 30-year career an AA pilot will gross at $12,098,016.00, while a SWA pilot will gross at $13,381,497.3 in career earnings. That is a difference of $1,283,481.00 favoring the SWA pilot.

I was really surprised at how close the numbers were, but I think the disparity can explained in that the majority of a pilot's career at AA will be spent in a NB, whereas widebody CA upgrade is still at the 18 year mark. Although SWA's hourly rate is lower, a "days gone per pay" is higher due to SWA's efficiency. Once an AA pilot hits WB CA, there is a difference of $46,732.55 per year favoring the AA pilot (using the average scenario).

Also, I don't know if anyone can explain SWA's vacation policy, but it seems the SWA folks get a lot more vacation than the AA folks. I don't know if I'm missing anything, but it seems that in almost every respect, SWA is better. Now, if only I can convince myself to get over the want and perceived "glamour" or widebody and long haul international flying, I think I'd be all in at SWA. I'm still really on the fence, but I hope this thread helps folks considering these two companies look at some comparison factors. Thanks!

flyguy81

Swa vacation:

Have 1 week in a month. If you choose QOL, any and all trips touching vacation are dropped. Depending on the trip, all/most of those trips are paid. Avg of 30-50 credit for a week if you’re a smart bidder. Usually end up with 14+ days off depending on where the week is and how you bid. Pick up around if if you want more pay.

If you choose pay, they have to get you back home prior to your vacation. Could only have 7 off but monthly pay is higher if you don’t want to mess with your schedule.

TexasBigJet

Thanks! That sort of makes sense. How many vacations weeks do you get as a junior guy, and how much does it increase as you become more senior?

flyguy81

First year you get a week that’s prorated depending on how much of the year you work.

2-5 years is 2 weeks
5-10 is 3 weeks
10-18 is 4 weeks
18+ is 5 weeks

Being able to turn 1 week into 2+ gives a jr guy a month off paid pretty easy.

hoover

I had 1 week and with the drop all preference and an over lap correction I had 28 days off and credited 62. Picked up some around my days off and credited 130 in 10 working days. So yeah out vacation rules are just ok