No concessions!!!!
10-18-2020, 05:41 PM
#91
Furloughed Again?!
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Boeing 737
Posts: 4,797
Just thinking out loud.
I wonder if they could realistically shrink the seniority list by 20% and still cover the summer flying given the percentage of senior FOs holding summer vacation weeks with their associated overlap drops?
What % of the pilot group in each seat ends up being off during the most popular summer weeks?
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10-18-2020, 05:47 PM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Posts: 639
If pax don't come back, none of this matters. In the meantime, scaring the **** out of the employees is maybe not the smartest thing to do. Stress doesn't go well in this business. The consequences can be catastrophic. A big "event" induced by stress will make a much bigger permanent dent in profits. Big gamble listening to Ford and Harrison on this one right now.
10-18-2020, 06:10 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 3,523
I think if furloughs made sense and were truly needed people would step up. It's clearly not the case now. This is a simple concessions grab and a chance to change contract language. I know you see that also.
I'd say our culture of taking care of eachother is alive and well based on not giving in to the company now and hosing everyone.
I'd say our culture of taking care of eachother is alive and well based on not giving in to the company now and hosing everyone.
Agree completely.
This "ask" by the company was so poorly constructed, I don't even know where to start.
No furlough numbers.
No financial data.
No realistic timeline to make a decision.
Ridiculous offer.
It is a textbook Ford/Harrison "don't let a crisis go to waste" play.
How about we wait until after the election and associated political posturing concerning stimulus and then start talking.
Until then, you are just wasting our time and yours.
No concessions. Not like this.
It's funny, I was all on board to save Dean by making tough choices that would, at least temporarily, impact me financially. Now I am a hard no after the last couple company comms.
10-18-2020, 07:18 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 963
Agree completely.
This "ask" by the company was so poorly constructed, I don't even know where to start.
No furlough numbers.
No financial data.
No realistic timeline to make a decision.
Ridiculous offer.
It is a textbook Ford/Harrison "don't let a crisis go to waste" play.
How about we wait until after the election and associated political posturing concerning stimulus and then start talking.
Until then, you are just wasting our time and yours.
No concessions. Not like this.
It's funny, I was all on board to save Dean by making tough choices that would, at least temporarily, impact me financially. Now I am a hard no after the last couple company comms.
This "ask" by the company was so poorly constructed, I don't even know where to start.
No furlough numbers.
No financial data.
No realistic timeline to make a decision.
Ridiculous offer.
It is a textbook Ford/Harrison "don't let a crisis go to waste" play.
How about we wait until after the election and associated political posturing concerning stimulus and then start talking.
Until then, you are just wasting our time and yours.
No concessions. Not like this.
It's funny, I was all on board to save Dean by making tough choices that would, at least temporarily, impact me financially. Now I am a hard no after the last couple company comms.
10-20-2020, 08:28 PM
#96
New Hire
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4
Another thing to remember...
In the great tradition of airline managements all along in the sordid, seedy history of airline managements, GK is playing right along with the FordHarrison playbook. Y'know, like getting labor groups to agree to concessions of some sort or another with an implied or even stated promise to not furlough or to not ask for more concessions and then, once they've gotten what they wanted, asking for or demanding even more concessions or just going ahead and furloughing?
Like, remember the pleas for everyone to take VSP and ExTO? And then, remember the "gratitude" expressed to those who jumped on those programs? Those programs closed out on July 15. And then, just a short two-and-a-half months later, GK needs more. He needs a 10% pay cut and he needs it NOW! Oh, and he needs a force majeure clause too, because, why not?
Turns out, the VSP and ExTO wasn't enough. And this new ask WILL end up being enough? As if we won't get into the new year, if we're dumb enough to agree to this "urgent" demand or some rejiggered form of it, and GK won't turn around and ask for another round of "shared sacrifice"?
Y'all, most of us have already taken a 10%+ pay cut. Most of us already have to work harder for the same pay because of the massive over-hiring drive since early 2017. Turns out hiring 2,000 more pilots than we need wasn't the best call. And now they want us to pay for their error.
Btw, the only perspective from which it makes sense for them to have hired so many extra pilots was a strategic decision to "prep the battlefield" for the 2020 contract fight. The decision to hire way too many pilots was likely made in the immediate aftermath of the ratification of the 2016 CBA. To wit, we started seeing an uptick in the pilot to aircraft ratio in early 2017. SWA does not waste money on purpose. They realize it costs more money over the long term to hire more people than to pay premium to X number of pilots.
That means there was a reason they decided to eat that cost. SWA has not been as consistently profitable as they have been by making decisions like hiring that many extra pilots out of spite or out of a belief that there was going to be a pilot shortage. There never was a pilot shortage at the major airline level and SWA is smart enough to realize that the US was due for a recession or an economic contraction in the not-too-distant future because the US, by the time they started hiring extra pilots, was in the midst of what turned out to be the longest economic expansion in history. It was inevitable, statistically and by the law of economic cycles, that the expansion would run its course during the 2020 CBA negotiation cycle.
The only reason that makes sense for them to hire that many pilots is the only reason that would save the company money in the long-term by hiring extra pilots. That reason is to prime the pilot group to approve a CBA containing some form of PBS. PBS would save the company loads of money from the time of ratification of a CBA containing PBS and into infinity future by eliminating most of the inefficiencies of overlap corrections. But how could the company get this pilot group, historically deathly opposed to PBS, to possibly vote in PBS?
Well, the main advantage of our current system is the open time system and the potential for drastically increased pay checks that it generates. A lot of open time is created as a result of overlap corrections. Our pilots have been addicted to the premium pay that open time creates. If, by hiring so many extra pilots, that almost no premium paying trips are available anymore, it eliminates the main advantage of our current line bidding system. Then, PBS starts to look appealing.
My belief is the company over-hired in the short term (their idea was a few years) in order to prime the pilot group to be open to buying the company's arguments for implementing PBS that would have been made right about now if the virus hadn't come along. Getting PBS on property at SWA, over the long run, would have saved a tremendous amount of money. Once they had achieved PBS, they could have then allowed the pilot to aircraft ratio to dwindle back down to its historical average.
That, I'm convinced was the strategy. But they didn't plan on covid. Now, they've got way more pilot than they need and contract 2020 negotiations are on the back burner indefinitely. They rolled the dice on their strategy. Turns out it wasn't the greatest idea.
I'm not willing to accommodate them for losing their own bet that was aimed at trying to screw the pilot group all along.
In the great tradition of airline managements all along in the sordid, seedy history of airline managements, GK is playing right along with the FordHarrison playbook. Y'know, like getting labor groups to agree to concessions of some sort or another with an implied or even stated promise to not furlough or to not ask for more concessions and then, once they've gotten what they wanted, asking for or demanding even more concessions or just going ahead and furloughing?
Like, remember the pleas for everyone to take VSP and ExTO? And then, remember the "gratitude" expressed to those who jumped on those programs? Those programs closed out on July 15. And then, just a short two-and-a-half months later, GK needs more. He needs a 10% pay cut and he needs it NOW! Oh, and he needs a force majeure clause too, because, why not?
Turns out, the VSP and ExTO wasn't enough. And this new ask WILL end up being enough? As if we won't get into the new year, if we're dumb enough to agree to this "urgent" demand or some rejiggered form of it, and GK won't turn around and ask for another round of "shared sacrifice"?
Y'all, most of us have already taken a 10%+ pay cut. Most of us already have to work harder for the same pay because of the massive over-hiring drive since early 2017. Turns out hiring 2,000 more pilots than we need wasn't the best call. And now they want us to pay for their error.
Btw, the only perspective from which it makes sense for them to have hired so many extra pilots was a strategic decision to "prep the battlefield" for the 2020 contract fight. The decision to hire way too many pilots was likely made in the immediate aftermath of the ratification of the 2016 CBA. To wit, we started seeing an uptick in the pilot to aircraft ratio in early 2017. SWA does not waste money on purpose. They realize it costs more money over the long term to hire more people than to pay premium to X number of pilots.
That means there was a reason they decided to eat that cost. SWA has not been as consistently profitable as they have been by making decisions like hiring that many extra pilots out of spite or out of a belief that there was going to be a pilot shortage. There never was a pilot shortage at the major airline level and SWA is smart enough to realize that the US was due for a recession or an economic contraction in the not-too-distant future because the US, by the time they started hiring extra pilots, was in the midst of what turned out to be the longest economic expansion in history. It was inevitable, statistically and by the law of economic cycles, that the expansion would run its course during the 2020 CBA negotiation cycle.
The only reason that makes sense for them to hire that many pilots is the only reason that would save the company money in the long-term by hiring extra pilots. That reason is to prime the pilot group to approve a CBA containing some form of PBS. PBS would save the company loads of money from the time of ratification of a CBA containing PBS and into infinity future by eliminating most of the inefficiencies of overlap corrections. But how could the company get this pilot group, historically deathly opposed to PBS, to possibly vote in PBS?
Well, the main advantage of our current system is the open time system and the potential for drastically increased pay checks that it generates. A lot of open time is created as a result of overlap corrections. Our pilots have been addicted to the premium pay that open time creates. If, by hiring so many extra pilots, that almost no premium paying trips are available anymore, it eliminates the main advantage of our current line bidding system. Then, PBS starts to look appealing.
My belief is the company over-hired in the short term (their idea was a few years) in order to prime the pilot group to be open to buying the company's arguments for implementing PBS that would have been made right about now if the virus hadn't come along. Getting PBS on property at SWA, over the long run, would have saved a tremendous amount of money. Once they had achieved PBS, they could have then allowed the pilot to aircraft ratio to dwindle back down to its historical average.
That, I'm convinced was the strategy. But they didn't plan on covid. Now, they've got way more pilot than they need and contract 2020 negotiations are on the back burner indefinitely. They rolled the dice on their strategy. Turns out it wasn't the greatest idea.
I'm not willing to accommodate them for losing their own bet that was aimed at trying to screw the pilot group all along.
10-21-2020, 04:02 AM
#97
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,030
Well said. We were naive in thinking the company would be satisfied with the voluntary programs and were blown away with the magnitude of them and the company’s appreciation for their success. The reality is they want the total monetary benefit of voluntary, concessionary, and involuntary programs, and they are going down the typical FH road to get there.
Undoubtedly, this is a huge bluff and we’d be fools for voting for concessions. If it’s not a bluff I’m well into furlough territory and have a plan in place for when that happens.
Undoubtedly, this is a huge bluff and we’d be fools for voting for concessions. If it’s not a bluff I’m well into furlough territory and have a plan in place for when that happens.
10-21-2020, 05:14 AM
#98
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2016
Posts: 78
So in the event of a furlough, let’s say 20%, would that include those already out on leave in the calculation or do they want an additional 20%?
I am out of range of my ipad pad so I didn’t see the latest email.
November of 2015 hires are at about 28% for reference as of today’s seniority list on CWA.
I am out of range of my ipad pad so I didn’t see the latest email.
November of 2015 hires are at about 28% for reference as of today’s seniority list on CWA.
I’m sure they don’t want to furlough any more than we do, but they want everybody to do their part and help. The problem is that we have a lot of leverage. They need pilots in order to recover from this. To furlough a pilot for a year there will be about 4 months wasted between furlough pay and retraining. And I’m willing to bet a year from now we will be properly staffed when factoring in VSP, EXTO and natural attrition....probably even calling back some EXTO’s. This is why pay cuts don’t make sense right now. I believe most pilots would be willing to take a deferment of 10% if the union signed off on the language in order to guarantee no furloughs and help the company recover faster. Payback in the form of stock sometime before share buybacks and dividends resume. This would prevent the bitterness that comes from the thought of sacrificing just to watch the shareholders see bigger gains.
10-21-2020, 05:47 AM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 338
It just doesn't add up
The 2019 Annual Report shows that LUV ended 2019 with $5.1 billion in liquidity and there’s not even a hint of concessions or furloughs. Yet, with nearly $15 billion in the bank and after approximately 17,000 employees, or 28% of the workforce, signed up for leaves of absence or early retirement AND the CARES Act expired our days are filled with doom and gloom. We know that 630 pilots took early retirement and 5400 flight attendants signed up for one of the programs offered while another 1100 flight attendants signed up for unpaid leave for November and December. It just doesn’t add up.
NO CONCESSIONS
SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO. - 2019 ANNUAL REPORT TO SHAREHOLDERS
April 2020
“This represented our 47th consecutive year of profitability, a record unmatched in commercial airline history. These earnings translated to strong operating cash flow of $4.0 billion; record free cash flow of $3.4 billion; and record shareholder returns of $2.4 billion. For the sixth consecutive year, we produced exceptional returns on capital, excluding special items, of 22.9 percent, pre-tax, and 17.8 percent, after-tax, in 2019, well in excess of our weighted average cost of capital.
We ended 2019 with exceptionally strong liquidity of $5.1 billion, including $4.1 billion in cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments, and a fully available, unsecured revolving credit line of $1.0 billion. Our investment-grade balance sheet was rated A3 by Moody’s; BBB+ by S&P; and A- by Fitch. All three rated our debt as stable. We ended the year with the strongest balance sheet in Southwest’s history, with adjusted debt to total invested capital of only 24 percent.”
NO CONCESSIONS
SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO. - 2019 ANNUAL REPORT TO SHAREHOLDERS
April 2020
“This represented our 47th consecutive year of profitability, a record unmatched in commercial airline history. These earnings translated to strong operating cash flow of $4.0 billion; record free cash flow of $3.4 billion; and record shareholder returns of $2.4 billion. For the sixth consecutive year, we produced exceptional returns on capital, excluding special items, of 22.9 percent, pre-tax, and 17.8 percent, after-tax, in 2019, well in excess of our weighted average cost of capital.
We ended 2019 with exceptionally strong liquidity of $5.1 billion, including $4.1 billion in cash, cash equivalents, and short-term investments, and a fully available, unsecured revolving credit line of $1.0 billion. Our investment-grade balance sheet was rated A3 by Moody’s; BBB+ by S&P; and A- by Fitch. All three rated our debt as stable. We ended the year with the strongest balance sheet in Southwest’s history, with adjusted debt to total invested capital of only 24 percent.”
10-21-2020, 08:40 AM
#100
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2017
Posts: 291
The 2019 Annual Report shows that LUV ended 2019 with $5.1 billion in liquidity and there’s not even a hint of concessions or furloughs. Yet, with nearly $15 billion in the bank and after approximately 17,000 employees, or 28% of the workforce, signed up for leaves of absence or early retirement AND the CARES Act expired our days are filled with doom and gloom. We know that 630 pilots took early retirement and 5400 flight attendants signed up for one of the programs offered while another 1100 flight attendants signed up for unpaid leave for November...”
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