RJSAviator76

We agree on a lot more than you think, brother.

flyguy81

Keeping longevity would be awesome. Start at the bottom and go to the 12 yr pay scale…or whatever you get tossed on the street at.

YangGang2020

This. Pilots can’t really distinguish themselves much from their peers. The reward system is purely based on persistence, resilience, and mostly luck. It’s by design and I feel a National seniority list would be less fair than an ALPA minimum wage so we don’t lose our shirt as a preferred hire from a defunct ALPA carrier.

waterskisabersw

in a perfect world this is exactly how it should be. I'll even go one step further and say you should keep ALL longevity benefits like pay, vesting, retirement benefits, LoL benefits, duration (not bidding) of vacations, etc.

The problem I see with it, though, is that it will create a real disincentive for hiring departments to hire fellow experienced pilots who are out of work due to no fault of their own. Could there be a way around that? Maybe. But that's the sticking point I think.

at6d

Seems like pay is the main issue.

The only way to do this would be if all pilots were employed by a single entity and were then offered out as contractors so to speak.

All 121 carriers would have to agree to a single set of work rules.

Not all carriers have the same aircraft, size, or financial capabilities, so how could a company like Breeze afford the same as Delta? Would the list be just the big four?

Just spitballing here.

ZapBrannigan

Every few years this comes up, and every few years it recedes. It’s often suggested during periods of stagnation or layoffs and then quickly forgotten when all of the airlines are hiring like crazy. I’m not dismissing the idea, but the logistics of getting the airlines to all agree to it would be a massive challenge - and then, would it only apply to ALPA pilots from ALPA carriers? Which ALPA DOH would apply - your current company, or your first ALPA DOH? Would it be instituted for existing pilots, or for all pilots hired after the date of signing? Let’s say there’s a Mesa Captain who has been at Mesa for 25 years, never able to move on because he has no degree, 3 DUIs, several checkride busts, and was briefly detained during an unfortunate incident on an overnight in El Paso during which he ventured across the border to by pharmaceuticals… can he take his 25 years of seniority and step right into the left seat at United?

For better or for worse we are married to the companies we work for. (Unless you want to be like me and bounce around for a couple of decades between furloughs and chasing greener pastures, but I don’t recommend this technique).

Negotiating capital is better spent getting the company to agree to pay retro for retirees who left during lengthy negotiations, and for continued cost of living increases during negotiations that continue beyond the amendable date of the CBA. There have to be financial disincentives for the company to string along negotiations for years and years. And maybe agreements between unions to establish a floor for compensation, work rules, retirement and ancillary benefits that no pilot group can sign an agreement that goes below that floor. (Looking at you Breeze…)

e6bpilot

National seniority? Terrible idea.

We aren't doctors or lawyers or corporate managers. There are schools to go to if you want to be part of those career fields. I have family and friends that practice law and work in a corporate setting. They hate their jobs but make great money.

Sorry, but the sooner pilots stop comparing ourselves to those professions, the better. It's only hurting us as a group.

The best thing we can all do is to fight for good contracts at our respective carriers. The labor market will work its way out.

Otherwise, roll the dice and choose wisely. That, and turn your head forward and quit looking back. Plenty of SkyWest and Envoy lifers that I am sure are much happier people and more enjoyable to be around than some of the miserable dooshes in both seats that I run across from time to time at work.

If you want to make a lateral move in this career, it's a financial and qol kick in the junk. Just accept it as a part of doing business.

RJSAviator76

Here's the crux of the problem. 1st year FO makes 44% of what the topped out 12th year FO makes and 31% of what the topped out captain makes. Why? Experience? BS!

Having spent time flying overseas, you don't see this type of pay disparity. The pay structure is much flatter and seniority, while it does have a role, does not define your entire existence.

As for airlines "not having incentives to hire experienced pilot", I'll call BS on that too, especially these days. Think insurance carriers would have a thing or two to say about that one.

BoilerUP

The segment of industry where this concept applies is private business aviation...not collectively bargained, seniority-based airlines.

flyguy81

That, and you’re effectively creating a B/C scale where new hires in the same class are being paid differently for pay and benefits. Interesting concept, but not sure how it’d play out in the real world.