Few questions
03-31-2023, 08:06 AM
#81
READY TO STRIKE
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Position: 737
Posts: 385
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
I would think if PBS were truly that terrible for the majority of their respective pilot groups, they’d make getting rid of PBS a priority use of their negotiating capital. But they didn’t and they aren’t. That’s interesting.
You often (correctly) lament on the lack of knowledge and education on the RLA at SWA. But don't forget that the the vast majority of other airlines have only a marginally, at best, better understanding of the RLA than we do (hence why so many airlines are failing to get the historic contracts we should be getting) and;
While most people who hate PBS here only experienced it at the regionals, the same thing can be said about people who love PBS at Delta only have the experience of using line bidding at the regionals/being here on property for only a short period.
I would love to see the opinion of somebody who was here for 5 years and moved to Delta, and, frankly, vice versa.
03-31-2023, 10:17 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,030
Originally Posted by Grishka
PBS is a tool. It's purpose is to utilize your individual seniority to the maxium as far as building a schedule that you want. Like any tool, if you understand how it works and use it properly it does and will work.
Your first preference line should be as specific as possible. (Example) 3 Day trips: weekends off: No DeadHeads: Report time 8 AM or Later: Release Time 2 PM or earlier: Credit 22 TFP or greater: JAX overnights: No night flights on a full moon: Ect.
Once the system arrives at your name it will build your month based on your first preference. Lets say there is only one trip availabe that meets the example above when it arrives at your name. You will be awarded that trip. Next the system will look at your second line preference. This is where you start dropping things that you don't absolutely prefer. Like the JAX overnights. The system will continue building your schedule until is has met the threshold for your month. You have to cascade your line preferences from most specific to least specific.
Those that don't understand how to bid using PBS might as well give the system a blank slate to build whatever it wants. And those people exist also. The key to PBS is to have as many line preferences as possible until all trips available for the month have been seqenced.
With that being said, PBS is also as effective as the parameters that the company sets. It is a program and will work as programed. This means that PBS has to have very clear and agreed to CBA language that covers every detail of it. Regionals abuse PBS by setting very restrictive parameters that benefit the company. This is why the union needs to have adequate control and oversight of what happens each month.
The big contention here at SWA is the vacation overlap rules that we have. Our current system is very inefficient for the company but suites us very well. PBS threatens this, and is exactly where the issue really is.
Someone earlier mentioned if vacation was overlapped onto your PBS awarded schedule after the fact, they would be on board. This would be a good option but the company would never agree to that because it is very costly for them and is inefficient.
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just think that many here at southwest have never used PBS and dont fully understand how it works. We basically are already using PBS with apps like CrewBid. The difference is the lines are already built and in PBS the system would build your line...
Saying only top 15% will be benefited can be said about line bidding as well. How many lines do we have that are 3 day trips Tuesday through Thursday? You don't think that only the top 15 % can hold a line like that here? 17 year Captains here can't even hold weekends off.
You can still have elite and trip trading with PBS and maintain the same after award schedule flexabilty we are offered today. I'm just saying vacation and PBS are two different conversations. It's how you agree to using them together that really matters at the end of the day.
Feel free to attack now...
Your first preference line should be as specific as possible. (Example) 3 Day trips: weekends off: No DeadHeads: Report time 8 AM or Later: Release Time 2 PM or earlier: Credit 22 TFP or greater: JAX overnights: No night flights on a full moon: Ect.
Once the system arrives at your name it will build your month based on your first preference. Lets say there is only one trip availabe that meets the example above when it arrives at your name. You will be awarded that trip. Next the system will look at your second line preference. This is where you start dropping things that you don't absolutely prefer. Like the JAX overnights. The system will continue building your schedule until is has met the threshold for your month. You have to cascade your line preferences from most specific to least specific.
Those that don't understand how to bid using PBS might as well give the system a blank slate to build whatever it wants. And those people exist also. The key to PBS is to have as many line preferences as possible until all trips available for the month have been seqenced.
With that being said, PBS is also as effective as the parameters that the company sets. It is a program and will work as programed. This means that PBS has to have very clear and agreed to CBA language that covers every detail of it. Regionals abuse PBS by setting very restrictive parameters that benefit the company. This is why the union needs to have adequate control and oversight of what happens each month.
The big contention here at SWA is the vacation overlap rules that we have. Our current system is very inefficient for the company but suites us very well. PBS threatens this, and is exactly where the issue really is.
Someone earlier mentioned if vacation was overlapped onto your PBS awarded schedule after the fact, they would be on board. This would be a good option but the company would never agree to that because it is very costly for them and is inefficient.
I'm not arguing one way or the other. I just think that many here at southwest have never used PBS and dont fully understand how it works. We basically are already using PBS with apps like CrewBid. The difference is the lines are already built and in PBS the system would build your line...
Saying only top 15% will be benefited can be said about line bidding as well. How many lines do we have that are 3 day trips Tuesday through Thursday? You don't think that only the top 15 % can hold a line like that here? 17 year Captains here can't even hold weekends off.
You can still have elite and trip trading with PBS and maintain the same after award schedule flexabilty we are offered today. I'm just saying vacation and PBS are two different conversations. It's how you agree to using them together that really matters at the end of the day.
Feel free to attack now...
I had a great experience with PBS as both senior and junior and even on reserve. But I would not vote yes for PBS at SWA because I don’t trust the union to negotiate and enforce the rules necessary for it to be beneficial, and will never trust the company to run it well.
PS. To say PBS only benefits the senior is laughable. Vacation bidding, ELITT and OT benefit relatively few at SWA. When the lower half of the SL (or even higher) have success it’s an outlier.
03-31-2023, 10:56 AM
#83
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by Grumpyaviator
I agree, and even without overlap you can still maximize vacation. However, the point is moot at SWA.
I had a great experience with PBS as both senior and junior and even on reserve. But I would not vote yes for PBS at SWA because I don’t trust the union to negotiate and enforce the rules necessary for it to be beneficial, and will never trust the company to run it well.
PS. To say PBS only benefits the senior is laughable. Vacation bidding, ELITT and OT benefit relatively few at SWA. When the lower half of the SL (or even higher) have success it’s an outlier.
I had a great experience with PBS as both senior and junior and even on reserve. But I would not vote yes for PBS at SWA because I don’t trust the union to negotiate and enforce the rules necessary for it to be beneficial, and will never trust the company to run it well.
PS. To say PBS only benefits the senior is laughable. Vacation bidding, ELITT and OT benefit relatively few at SWA. When the lower half of the SL (or even higher) have success it’s an outlier.
In regards to why Delta didnt priortize going back to line bidding, it's probably because they have and are continuing to work out all the issues with PBS over many contracts including the very last one. The system itself isn't the problem. It's how you use it. Knowledge is key.
04-06-2023, 01:16 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,839
Originally Posted by Grishka
Yup, and the reality is our pilot group's lack of experience with PBS will result in growing pains. Hitting a home run right away with this transition is unlikely, and would probably entail multiple contract cycles to get right. The never PBSers will come on here and tell us I told you so.
In regards to why Delta didnt priortize going back to line bidding, it's probably because they have and are continuing to work out all the issues with PBS over many contracts including the very last one. The system itself isn't the problem. It's how you use it. Knowledge is key.
In regards to why Delta didnt priortize going back to line bidding, it's probably because they have and are continuing to work out all the issues with PBS over many contracts including the very last one. The system itself isn't the problem. It's how you use it. Knowledge is key.
With PBS, like any system, people who take the time to really learn the system can leverage that for better results. With line bidding, you get what you get, but PBS allows multiple bid strategies in a single bid to work out alternatives to get to the desired result.
As was pointed out above, the key to PBS is good contractual language that provides for a union side PBS committee that has the power to stop the show. Having control of the parameters is key. Any PBS committee needs people who are not only technically savvy, but understand the contract and schedule construction, annd also have a very good dose of customer service skills.
The vacation, training and other absence issues are separate, since they can be made to work with whatever system you choose, but as someone pointed out, the big attraction for the Company is the increase in productivity that PBS provides. Vacation certainly is one of those, but it’s dwarfed by the month to month transition problems that are solved, and that accounts for the lions share of the gains on the company side.
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