tsquare

Certainly no windfall there.

tomgoodman

Threatening to pull some kind of "trigger" is a very traditional negotiating tactic by both sides. Sometimes they really mean it, and in those rare cases would be doing you no favor by keeping their plan secret. Usually it's a bluff, and that is also an allowable tactic (provided that the "gun" is a legal one). Frank Borman justified his concessionary agreement at EAL by saying "We had a gun to our head." Translation: "We caved."
Without threats, contract negotiations are just friendly discussions.

newKnow

I agree with both of you on the principle of how all is fair in negotiations. But, it seems to me that this (SLI negotiations) is a little different.

It's one thing to have two equal parties (SWA pilots vs. AT pilots) negotiate, push, pull and tug for seniority, but it seems that when management comes in and takes the side of one party over the other and threatens the other with walking papers, that good faith has left the table.

When DAL merged with NWA, to their credit, I never got the sense that Delta management sided with anyone. My impression was that they kind of let us go to our area and work things out on our own. From what I have seen, this seems to be the way most airline merger SLI negotiations go -- management stays out of it.

The rumor I have heard is that if the AT pilots don't take the "deal," SWA will leave Air Tran as a separate company and slowly sell off its assets. The trigger of "firing" the dissenters seems to be a bit unreasonable to me and I doubt it Mccaskill/Bond had that in mind when the legislation was passed.

proletariatav8r

You know Marvin, you’re absolutely right. I made a giant stereotype based on three pilots. No question. I’m sure there is the exact opposite of what I described, highly qualified, and competitive pilots at Air Tran and some ordinary average guys who are flying at SWA.

The pilots who made it in the final classes, well one I know because he told me, agreed to the class because he knew eventually he’d be with Southwest. I would have done the exact same thing and don’t fault him one bit for it.

As everybody scrutinizes the seniority list combination and career earning potential, these guys, even if they weren’t “stapled” are looking forward to the best chance (past history doesn’t guarantee future results) of a long stable career. Pay, equipment be damned, I want a long, furlough free career. I'd much rather look towards a long upgrade, with respectable FO pay, but the lowest chance of a furlough, than a quick upgrade due to projected attrition with a potential furlough based on a spotty track record of many of the once vaunted carriers. Finally, there are some well qualified pilots, and if I could be so bold, I’d put myself in the category, who would kill to be in a junior Air Tran FO’s position right now.

Marvin

Fair question. I'm looking at what I have been averaging per month and comparing to the trips-for-pay rate at SWA for my years of service times the advertised average over the past 5 years for SWA pilots of 105 trips-for-pay per month.

Based upon the proposed seniority list, it is likely that I will be moved out of ATL into a junior SWA base, to which I will have to commute for ... a long time. Maybe, at some point, I might be able to bid back into ATL.

Not griping. Just stating the facts as I see them.

BTW, FWIW ... 5th year FO at Airtran earning just the guarantee would be just over $85K, going up a couple thousand in Dec per the contract. For a 5th year SWA FO to be at $120K on reserve, that looks like 90 trips-for-pay per month -- is that the number you used? Is that what their guarantee is? I don't know, that's why I'm asking.

tomgoodman

I distrust rumors, but I would agree that if management is trying to dictate the SLI, they are making an unwise move. Obtaining a harmonious workforce should concern them more than which particular names are attached to which seniority numbers. If, on the other hand, they are truthfully advising both pilot groups that failure to make a deal could jeopardize the whole merger, it's better than keeping that fact a secret.

JohnDeere

Mr. Proletariat,

How's this for experience? As I peruse the Southwest seniority list, I see names of people (good people) who jerked gear for me at the commuters. They came up just like so many of us; flight instructing, free flying, commuters, majors (things the F-15 guy couldn't fathom.)

The fact that these folks, now at Southwest, got hired with minimum to no jet time and no prior major airline experience, should that relegate them to second class status? B-scale maybe?

Should the Airtran pilots be given second class status?

LuvJockey

90 avg trips average guarantee for reserve lines. Absolute min is 85 for February, or 6 trips per day of reserve. In other words, reserve lines typically carry more reserve days than guaranteed minimum. Reserve in July has been paying 120+ trips due to higher utilization (vacation, summer colds, etc.)

Hacker15e

What is it about any of those things that "the F-15 guy couldn't fathom"?

Clear Right

I have nog dog in this fight, but IMHO I would not fall for this "threat," SWAPA is using strong arm tactics to avoid Arbitration, because they know an Arbitor would never allow this seniority grab proposal. SWA needs this deal or they would have never moved forward. They need to grow to continue their profits, and they need the slots at all the places AirTran has to offer. And of course they need to eliminate a competitor.